Dzogchen and Free Will

[Josef]

I have not personally heard him say this

Neither have I.

[Thrasymachus]

This is not based on Dzogchen(then again you don't even live in a Buddhist influenced society like say Bhutan), but from my reading of various critics of Western teleological progress. Free will does not exist in our society, it has been debunked long ago by various thinkers. There are so many distal social forces and so many interlocking and mutually reinforcing highly complex systems at play you are really just a barely animated mannequin with a few options you can exercise. There is no free will as such. The choice matrix in the USA where I know you live, is like:
--work a job that likely nothing to do with the direct procurement of necessities(or only a very small part of their production and distribution) or starve from the lack of money to purchase the basics
--go to school or get arrested by the truant officer
--pay the mortgage/rent or some man backed by the threat of a gun will kick you out
etc.

You have so little social power over most decisions that affect you it is not funny. Most our society is geared around abstracting you into a fake reality of surrogate activities and surrogate reality, so you can ignore how ensnared and unauthentic the way you live actually is. If this was not the case you would be outside screaming, and when you went outside to do it, you would have found neighbors doing the same. Then you would have discussed and plotted what to do about it with them. But that does not happen because they developed techniques to prevent it.

A good way to summarize is you are a Capt N Crunch action figure in the bottom of the cereal, with a limited range of actual movement compared to even many people in past or alternative societies currently operated according to diametrically opposed values.

[Jax]

Someone suggested recently I teach a hodge-podge of Sufi, Zen, Advaita and new age practices. That's not true at all. I teach at first shamatha, vipassana, I emphasize much sitting practice in order to first relax the movements of mind and then to investigate the nature of thoughts and then the nature of self-identity. I then begin "pointing out" instructions while the individuals are meditating, in order that the mind being in a state of shine' can more easily recognize the ever present state of primordial awareness. When that recognition occurs, that is rigpa. I am looking for that insight to arise in each student or we continue working with clarifying recognition of the natural state. I then teach methods of trekchod such as "Sky Gazing" as the main practice to deepen and broaden the "clarity". We then learn and practice the postures of thogal, noticing the effect of just assuming the postures for various periods of time. After that I begin teaching basic thogal "sun gazing" practice.
We do daily gTumo practice as well. So that is what I teach at my retreats, which is quite different than the impression that others have given of what I teach. I wanted to make that perfectly clear. I always recommend that people first seek out transmission if possible, regarding Dzogchen. I am not here at Dharma Wheel to find students or promote what i do. I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.

[Josef]

bye

[gregkavarnos]

You see, now he's playing the guru and divulging all sorts of information that may or may not be true. Now one would be justified in leveling various valid accusations.

[heart]

You see, now he's playing the guru and divulging all sorts of information that may or may not be true. Now one would be justified in leveling various valid accusations.

He been playing Guru for a long time, also if you haven't noticed it. He wrote all this stuff on esangha to.

/magnus

[Adamantine]

I am not here at Dharma Wheel to find students or promote what i do.

[Malcolm]

I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.

Most of us have teachers and a practice and have no interest in your instructions or recommendations for practice. And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N

[udawa]

I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.

Most of us have teachers and a practice and have no interest in your instructions or recommendations for practice. And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N

Caveat meditator...?

[Dronma]

And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N

This is exactly a very good example of the "free will" which exists in samsara.....

[Jax]

I can understand your concerns. In my experience most Westerners have no interest in teachings grounded in the Tibetan religious and cultural milieu. So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings. Zen went through the same transition and still is. Great Freedom is another example but Candice doesn't acknowledge the source of her teachings, but its still good stuff. The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect. The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits. We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...

[Malcolm]

So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings.

In my opinion, you and those others lack the necessary qualifications to present these teachings, generic or not.

The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect.

No, it is an abomination. Such a thing is completely disconnected from the meaning of the teachings as well as the lineage of the teachings so on and so forth.

The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits.

Setting oneself up as a guru is not the way to go about "mono a mono" access to a true Dzogchen master. And the only valid Dzogchen teachings are "lineage teachings". Of course, there will always be "teachers" who manifest like mushrooms in a field after rain.

We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...

It is even more of a problem when con artists pretend to be Dzogchen masters in order to make money (whether Tibetan or not), and give invalid teachings of Dzogchen -- this just leads people to lower realms.

N

[pensum]

the subject of this thread reads "Dzogchen and Free Will", so i'm not exactly clear as to what Jax and everyone's opinion of him have to do with that, but you all seem quite further advanced along the path, both in understanding and embodiment, so i will trust that there is method in such apparent madness. if there is, then i apologize for interrupting such an enlightened conversation, but being somewhat more literally-minded i thought the following interview, which deals directly with the issue of free will, might once have been of interest: http://www.naturalism.org/strawson_interview.htm

[Adamantine]

So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings.

In my opinion, you and those others lack the necessary qualifications to present these teachings, generic or not.

The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect.

No, it is an abomination. Such a thing is completely disconnected from the meaning of the teachings as well as the lineage of the teachings so on and so forth.

The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits.

Setting oneself up as a guru is not the way to go about "mono a mono" access to a true Dzogchen master. And the only valid Dzogchen teachings are "lineage teachings". Of course, there will always be "teachers" who manifest like mushrooms in a field after rain.

We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...

It is even more of a problem when con artists pretend to be Dzogchen masters in order to make money (whether Tibetan or not), and give invalid teachings of Dzogchen -- this just leads people to lower realms.

N

[CapNCrunch]

the subject of this thread reads "Dzogchen and Free Will", so i'm not exactly clear as to what Jax and everyone's opinion of him have to do with that, but you all seem quite further advanced along the path, both in understanding and embodiment, so i will trust that there is method in such apparent madness.

Thanks for the link - I'll check it out. The thread has been somewhat derailed, but the subject matter is spread over several threads that for whatever reason, are important to the forum at this time - so sometimes you just have to roll w/ it.

For my part, I started the thread and received answers that satisfied me for now - but if there are people interested in the subject, then by all means - rise up and take the thread back

Having said that I'm satisfied, If there's anything interesting on the subject of free will, such as you've posted - I'd love to read and discuss.