The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

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The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:02 am

"Because Awareness (Rigpa) has no finite essence, and because suchness and deliberate activity are mutually exclusive, and because Awareness is already timelessly and spontaneously present, nothing need be done concerning levels of realization on which to train, spiritual paths to traverse, mandalas to visualize, empowerments to be bestowed, paths to cultivate in meditation, samaya to uphold, enlightened activities to accomplish, and so forth. This is because there is no need to accomplish anew what is already timelessly and spontaneously accomplished. If there were such need, it would be inappropriate to use the conventional designation "spontaneously present and uncompounded." And it would follow that dharmakaya was subject to destruction, because it would be compounded, and this because it would be created by causes and conditions." (practices etc.) Longchenpa, Choying Dzod, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, page 120, first paragraph. Padma Publications.

Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:18 am

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:


:thinking:




1:15 - 1:26:

"...otherwise, it is not so easy."


Thank you Lhug Pa!!! Excellent! Excellent video! :twothumbsup:
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Josef » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:39 am

Here we go.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:50 am

Jax wrote:Thank you Lhug Pa!!! Excellent! Excellent video! :twothumbsup:


Posted that video actually because I just sent it to a friend earlier today.

As for what I quoted from Longchenpa Rabjampa, that's found in your older post...; it seems that he is not saying that freedom doesn't come about through Direct Introduction, but that even the thought that it does is what is a delusion, because in Rigpa there are no contrived thoughts, even lofty ones about Dzogchen teachings, etc.

Or in other words, perhaps implying that once able to remain stable in Rigpa, there is no longer any need to "practice" Guru Yoga because Guru Yoga is already included in the authentic state of Rigpa.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby heart » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:10 am

Jax wrote:"Because Awareness (Rigpa) has no finite essence, and because suchness and deliberate activity are mutually exclusive, and because Awareness is already timelessly and spontaneously present, nothing need be done concerning levels of realization on which to train, spiritual paths to traverse, mandalas to visualize, empowerments to be bestowed, paths to cultivate in meditation, samaya to uphold, enlightened activities to accomplish, and so forth. This is because there is no need to accomplish anew what is already timelessly and spontaneously accomplished. If there were such need, it would be inappropriate to use the conventional designation "spontaneously present and uncompounded." And it would follow that dharmakaya was subject to destruction, because it would be compounded, and this because it would be created by causes and conditions." (practices etc.) Longchenpa, Choying Dzod, A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission, page 120, first paragraph. Padma Publications.

Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?


"[Q7] How is one to view the meaning of the teaching that ‘there is no attainment of awakening?’

One’s own nature abides as the sky. This means that
There is no reason to transform oneself into the sky.
The mind itself is the sky, the expanse of awakening;
There is no cause of the attainment of awakening.
Without ground or root, the mind itself,
Like the sky, is not [made] pure by cleansing.
Awakening, free of production,
Is without any cause or fruit of awakening whatsoever."

Rdo rje sems dpa’i zhus a Mahayoga manual from 9th century recovered in Dunhuang.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:41 am

Wonderful Magnus! Thank you for sharing that...
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:47 am

Lhugpa, I will post the phrase in context. Longchenpa is pointing out that there is no need for "direct introduction", who would benefit from such? The Dharmakaya does not require an introduction to itself, as though it forgot it's actual identity.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Adamantine » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:52 am

Jax wrote:Lhugpa, I will post the phrase in context. Longchenpa is pointing out that there is no need for "direct introduction", who would benefit from such? The Dharmakaya does not require an introduction to itself, as though it forgot it's actual identity.



So why then, if you really believe this, are you giving your students pointing out instruction while they are meditating?

And why spend all this time on internet forums? You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to point things out here, but "who would benefit from such?"
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 am

Adamantine wrote:
Jax wrote:Lhugpa, I will post the phrase in context. Longchenpa is pointing out that there is no need for "direct introduction", who would benefit from such? The Dharmakaya does not require an introduction to itself, as though it forgot it's actual identity.



So why then, if you really believe this, are you giving your students pointing out instruction while they are meditating?


So that they see it the same as Longchenpa. ;)
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby alpha » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:07 am

In other words you need pointing out instructions in order to understand that there is no pointing out...
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:09 am

alpha wrote:In other words you need pointing out instructions in order to understand that there is no pointing out...

Isn't that hilarious?
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:13 am

Adamantine wrote:
Jax wrote:Lhugpa, I will post the phrase in context. Longchenpa is pointing out that there is no need for "direct introduction", who would benefit from such? The Dharmakaya does not require an introduction to itself, as though it forgot it's actual identity.



So why then, if you really believe this, are you giving your students pointing out instruction while they are meditating?

And why spend all this time on internet forums? You seem to be spending a lot of time trying to point things out here, but "who would benefit from such?"


No one at all... Why, did you think there was someone? ;-)
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby alpha » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:17 am

If the moment of pointing out coincides with you seeing your face then i guess there is no pointing out since in that moment is not possible to be two:you and the one who is pointing out...but i could be wrong... :smile:
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby heart » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:36 am

Jax wrote:Wonderful Magnus! Thank you for sharing that...


"[Q48] Does one attain accomplishments without obtaining empowerments from the master?

With regard to the Great Secret concealed by the Conquerors of the three times,
An assertion that achievement occurs by means of a false [mastery] on one’s own,
Though one searches the entire ocean of sacred discourse,
Will not be found, nor should it be."

And also

"[Q32] Because [meditative stabilization] is effortless, isn’t it contradictory to explain that accomplishment will be met through effort?

If it is obvious that sentient beings must strive,
Is it false [to say that] Conqueror-hood is spontaneously accomplished?
It is like the letters and so forth: with diligence, again and again,
Having grown to be proficient, [literacy] comes to one without effort."

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Kilaya. » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:13 pm

alpha wrote:In other words you need pointing out instructions in order to understand that there is no pointing out...


Several New Age "gurus" write books and give seminars on why a guru is unnecessary so people do not seek for bona fide teachers and buy their BS instead. "Let ME teach you why no teacher is necessary". That's Kali yuga for you.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:21 pm

Garab Dorje thought Direct Introduction was important...so does my master Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche...good enough for me...enough said
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby alpha » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:02 pm

If Rigpa is a causeless state how can a cause give rise to it?

I am asking this becasue the reality sugests something different.
There is pointing out therefore there is recognition...
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:39 pm

It's not the primordial nature that is caused. But the reason why you can't rest in the natural state has causes. Like the wind that blows a cloud from blocking the sun isn't responsible for the sun shining. So we practice, even if such practice doesn't cause the natural state but allows us to recognize it. The sun is always shinning but if the clouds are blocking its light we still can't see it. When we cut through the clouds we aren't causing the sun to shine. But unless we do it, its light won't get to us. How come is this so difficult to understand? And don't tell me that the clouds are also the natural state as that would be abusing the metaphor. The clouds here mean our lack of ability to remain in the natural state.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:41 pm

Jax wrote:
Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?


No actually, what Longchenpa is talking about vidyā as dharmakāya.

Because vidyā is essenceless, because a substantial active agent is contradicted in the real state, and because it has always been naturally formed, there are no stages to train on, paths to traverse, mandala to create, empowerment to receive, path to meditate, commitments to protect, activities to accomplish and so on. There is no need create again what has already formed naturally. If it were necessary, conventionally designating natural formation as unconditioned would be invalid. Consequently, the dharmakāya would be perishable because it would be conditioned, and because it would have been made by causes and conditions.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that in reality there are no agent and actions so therefore these following things do not exist in vidyā, the dharmakāya. It does not mean that there is nothing to do. Most people are unaware that lhun grub means "not made by anyone". It means that vidyā cannot be fabricated, only recognized.

But Longchenpa does not say that introduction is unnecessary. On the contrary, chapter nine explicitly teachs introduction:

From the two systems in which naked vidyā is suddenly recognized, this is the introduction which does not depend on critical points. Since that stark, uninterrupted and uniform awareness (which does not move outwardly, grasp inwardly, rest in middle, is not fabricated with the mind and is without conceptual movement) exists at all times, by introducing it's naked arising within the state of the blessing at the time when the master and student are momentarily in the same state, starkness is seen nakedly. That alone can generate confidence in dharmakāya. The critical point is to sustain that state without meditation and without distraction.

Then of course there is the system of introduction that depends on six critical points.

However your contention " He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary." is proven to be false.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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