Dzogchen and Free Will

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Josef »

Adamantine wrote:
I have not personally heard him say this
Neither have I.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Thrasymachus
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Thrasymachus »

This is not based on Dzogchen(then again you don't even live in a Buddhist influenced society like say Bhutan), but from my reading of various critics of Western teleological progress. Free will does not exist in our society, it has been debunked long ago by various thinkers. There are so many distal social forces and so many interlocking and mutually reinforcing highly complex systems at play you are really just a barely animated mannequin with a few options you can exercise. There is no free will as such. The choice matrix in the USA where I know you live, is like:
--work a job that likely nothing to do with the direct procurement of necessities(or only a very small part of their production and distribution) or starve from the lack of money to purchase the basics
--go to school or get arrested by the truant officer
--pay the mortgage/rent or some man backed by the threat of a gun will kick you out
etc.

You have so little social power over most decisions that affect you it is not funny. Most our society is geared around abstracting you into a fake reality of surrogate activities and surrogate reality, so you can ignore how ensnared and unauthentic the way you live actually is. If this was not the case you would be outside screaming, and when you went outside to do it, you would have found neighbors doing the same. Then you would have discussed and plotted what to do about it with them. But that does not happen because they developed techniques to prevent it.

A good way to summarize is you are a Capt N Crunch action figure in the bottom of the cereal, with a limited range of actual movement compared to even many people in past or alternative societies currently operated according to diametrically opposed values.
Jax
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Jax »

Someone suggested recently I teach a hodge-podge of Sufi, Zen, Advaita and new age practices. That's not true at all. I teach at first shamatha, vipassana, I emphasize much sitting practice in order to first relax the movements of mind and then to investigate the nature of thoughts and then the nature of self-identity. I then begin "pointing out" instructions while the individuals are meditating, in order that the mind being in a state of shine' can more easily recognize the ever present state of primordial awareness. When that recognition occurs, that is rigpa. I am looking for that insight to arise in each student or we continue working with clarifying recognition of the natural state. I then teach methods of trekchod such as "Sky Gazing" as the main practice to deepen and broaden the "clarity". We then learn and practice the postures of thogal, noticing the effect of just assuming the postures for various periods of time. After that I begin teaching basic thogal "sun gazing" practice.
We do daily gTumo practice as well. So that is what I teach at my retreats, which is quite different than the impression that others have given of what I teach. I wanted to make that perfectly clear. I always recommend that people first seek out transmission if possible, regarding Dzogchen. I am not here at Dharma Wheel to find students or promote what i do. I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.
Last edited by Mr. G on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed Dzogchen practice related comments - inappropriate for an open forum.
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Josef »

bye
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Grigoris »

You see, now he's playing the guru and divulging all sorts of information that may or may not be true. Now one would be justified in leveling various valid accusations.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by heart »

gregkavarnos wrote:You see, now he's playing the guru and divulging all sorts of information that may or may not be true. Now one would be justified in leveling various valid accusations.
:namaste:
He been playing Guru for a long time, also if you haven't noticed it. He wrote all this stuff on esangha to.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Adamantine »

Jax wrote: I am not here at Dharma Wheel to find students or promote what i do.
:roll:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Malcolm »

Jax wrote: I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.
Most of us have teachers and a practice and have no interest in your instructions or recommendations for practice. And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N
udawa
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by udawa »

Namdrol wrote:
Jax wrote: I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.
Most of us have teachers and a practice and have no interest in your instructions or recommendations for practice. And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N
Caveat meditator...?
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
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Dronma
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Dronma »

Namdrol wrote:And for those who do wish to comunicate with you via pm about such topics, caveat emptor.


N

This is exactly a very good example of the "free will" which exists in samsara..... :mrgreen:
The sound of s i l e n c e.....
Jax
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Jax »

I can understand your concerns. In my experience most Westerners have no interest in teachings grounded in the Tibetan religious and cultural milieu. So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings. Zen went through the same transition and still is. Great Freedom is another example but Candice doesn't acknowledge the source of her teachings, but its still good stuff. The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect. The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits. We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Malcolm »

Jax wrote:So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings.
In my opinion, you and those others lack the necessary qualifications to present these teachings, generic or not.
The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect.
No, it is an abomination. Such a thing is completely disconnected from the meaning of the teachings as well as the lineage of the teachings so on and so forth.
The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits.
Setting oneself up as a guru is not the way to go about "mono a mono" access to a true Dzogchen master. And the only valid Dzogchen teachings are "lineage teachings". Of course, there will always be "teachers" who manifest like mushrooms in a field after rain.

We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...
It is even more of a problem when con artists pretend to be Dzogchen masters in order to make money (whether Tibetan or not), and give invalid teachings of Dzogchen -- this just leads people to lower realms.

N
pensum
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by pensum »

the subject of this thread reads "Dzogchen and Free Will", so i'm not exactly clear as to what Jax and everyone's opinion of him have to do with that, but you all seem quite further advanced along the path, both in understanding and embodiment, so i will trust that there is method in such apparent madness. if there is, then i apologize for interrupting such an enlightened conversation, but being somewhat more literally-minded i thought the following interview, which deals directly with the issue of free will, might once have been of interest: http://www.naturalism.org/strawson_interview.htm
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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Adamantine »

Namdrol wrote:
Jax wrote:So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings.
In my opinion, you and those others lack the necessary qualifications to present these teachings, generic or not.
The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect.
No, it is an abomination. Such a thing is completely disconnected from the meaning of the teachings as well as the lineage of the teachings so on and so forth.
The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits.
Setting oneself up as a guru is not the way to go about "mono a mono" access to a true Dzogchen master. And the only valid Dzogchen teachings are "lineage teachings". Of course, there will always be "teachers" who manifest like mushrooms in a field after rain.

We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...
It is even more of a problem when con artists pretend to be Dzogchen masters in order to make money (whether Tibetan or not), and give invalid teachings of Dzogchen -- this just leads people to lower realms.

N
:good:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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CapNCrunch
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by CapNCrunch »

the subject of this thread reads "Dzogchen and Free Will", so i'm not exactly clear as to what Jax and everyone's opinion of him have to do with that, but you all seem quite further advanced along the path, both in understanding and embodiment, so i will trust that there is method in such apparent madness.
Thanks for the link - I'll check it out. The thread has been somewhat derailed, but the subject matter is spread over several threads that for whatever reason, are important to the forum at this time - so sometimes you just have to roll w/ it.

For my part, I started the thread and received answers that satisfied me for now - but if there are people interested in the subject, then by all means - rise up and take the thread back :)

Having said that I'm satisfied, If there's anything interesting on the subject of free will, such as you've posted - I'd love to read and discuss.
“I say good-bye to hope, but I also say goodbye to hope's disappointment.”

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Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Simon E. »

Malcolm wrote:
CapNCrunch wrote:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."
Well this definition itself is flawed since it presumes there are such things as "rational agents" and arguably by this definition anyone who knowingly engages in afflicted conduct is irrational and therefore incapable of free will even though they may be making all kinds of choices.

From a Dzogchen perspective sentient beings are fundamentally irrational since they are entirely products of ignorance and deluded appearances.

In other words, this western philosophical concept is entirely irrevelvant to Buddhism, including Dzogchen (which is a form of Buddhism, or rather, an a proposed solution to existential questions found in Buddhism).

Something from an old thread that seemed pertinent enough to bounce it up again...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Vasana »

gad rgyangs wrote: Maybe all we can conclude from this is that the basis has a strange sense of humor.


It wouldn't surprise me.
gad rgyangs wrote: But the bottom line is, it actually doesn't matter, since all there is is the basis, the basis is beyond existence and non-existence, and the basis is your real nature, like it or not, or know it or not. Whew, what a relief!
I think that's key. Whether it exists or not, positive or negative, virtuous or not , it always resolves back into the basis. Things proliferate themselves as long as we do and there's never any non-moving samsaric-state to rest on. Whether actions happen through free-will / karmic-vision, they never abide for longer than a moment at a time. (If at all)

Could this question be another one of those arrows we're wounded with, but won't take out because we're caught up in finding out what the arrow's made of and who sent it?
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
daelm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by daelm »

Free will is a necessary outcome of any successful practice. The nature of samsara implies dilution of autonomy. Release from such constraints implies autonomy.

The caveat, though, is that the notion of "free will" in non-dharma schemes, rests on the ability to act through channels - body, speech and mind - that are held in dharma to be the same factors that, unaddressed, constrain its achievement. All practice paths therefore attempt to address body, speech and mind, in different ways. According to dharma, notional free will in the normal conceptual schema (where free will is assumed to be actionable by means of the same mechanisms that prevent it) is therefore inextricably linked to its constraints.

Freedom from constraints is the goal of the path. But with that freedom from constraints, the world as you know it also collapses, included in which collapse are all concepts derived from those constraints. That includes "free will"

For example, in dharma, all the factors that inhibit free will such as a chimpanzee nervous system, modern social conditioning, latent emotional tendencies in an individual, a particular organization of mind and so on are all outcomes of karma. Illusions, basically, and inadequate for the task, in the form we find them in.

Therefore, in the form we find them in, they act as constraints, and every practice path works to address them.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Post by Maitriya »

Hello, this may be a little bit late for this thread but here is an excerpt from “Self Arising Primordial Awareness” that, in my view, points to human agency as being an illusion.
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ar ... _Awareness

Some lines that stand out to me are:

“the fruition of natural perfection can neither be avoided nor attained”

“the praxis of natural perfection is neither developed nor neglected”

“the actuality of natural perfection is neither cultivated nor ignored”

“Abiding here, doing nothing, embodied as man or god, our dynamic is buddha-reality; here sentient beings are cared for, And without any exertion we live in ease.”

Also, I can speak from personal experience that I live in Sahaj Samadhi. I can not control anything. I used to do much Sadhana and one day I woke up and couldn’t move. Then my body and mind began working all on their own. I no longer direct my mind and body, and I don’t think I ever actually did.
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