No-self and Rigpa

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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Jax wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Jax wrote:
Perhaps the Great Perfection IS the imputations and the populating by the intellect with dualisms... As opposed from being separate from or prior to?


So pompous elephants of ati would maintain, unable to distinquish sems from rtsal.


Namdrol... Sem is tsal ( or rolpa if you prefer) All of the display is "equally" the play or ornament of the Base.


I think you need to read chos dbyings mdzod, chapter 5, a little more carefully:

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is awakened mind (bodhicitta);
this confusion is a dimension of complete darkness,
a hindrance to the meaning of the natural great perfection.


And:

Thus, the energy of compassion moves from self-originated wisdom, that cognition arisen towards an object is called “play arising from energy”. That [cognition] is not self-originated wisdom because of the difference between the existence and non-existence of the object and because if there is no connection with the method, affliction and action leading to existence are generated, and because the nature of conceptuality and discursivess never transcends samsara.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby heart » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Emaho! Thanks Namdrol.

/magnus
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:35 pm

Even ChNN explains it differently ...

Another manifestation of Energy is called Tsal, which is related to the Nirmanakaya condition. The example used in this case is a piece of rock crystal that is struck by the sun’s rays. Infinite rainbow colors emanate from such a rock crystal onto the walls of a room in which it is placed, but if you look into the rock crystal you cannot see these rainbows inside it; they are only visible outside. This is the aspect of Energy called Tsal.
It is through this Tsal Energy that our manifestation of pure and impure vision, and our particular karmic vision, arises. We are now human beings, and we have human vision. We perceive our environment dualistically, splitting it into an apparent reality of a perceiving subject separated from a world of external objects. But in fact everything we perceive is like the rainbow lights, which have their source in the rock crystal when it is struck by the sun’s rays. If we see a five-colored rainbow, this means that we perceive the pure dimension, pure vision. When the essence of the elements combines together with our karma, then the elements manifest on the material level, creating impure vision. Thus, the source of karmic vision is this aspect of Energy known as Tsal; but this same Tsal Energy, through certain practices particular to the Dzogchen teaching, such as Thödgal and Yangti, gives us the possibility of reintegrating our material existence, and of finally realizing the Rainbow Body.


Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:49 am

Did you all miss this last post?


Re: No-self and Rigpa
by Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:23 am
More on "imputations" being the Great Perfection:

Longchenpa writes: "Everything is the perfection of awakened mind. Furthermore there is perfection in oneness, in that everything is perfect within the scope of awareness. There is perfection in duality, in that there is perfection in the creations of ordinary mind (sem)." Choying Dzod.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:44 am

Jax:

CYD is a long text with a very long argument -- you cannot just cherry pick quotes from it to suit yourself.


Jax wrote:Did you all miss this last post?


Re: No-self and Rigpa
by Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:23 am
More on "imputations" being the Great Perfection:

Longchenpa writes: "Everything is the perfection of awakened mind. Furthermore there is perfection in oneness, in that everything is perfect within the scope of awareness. There is perfection in duality, in that there is perfection in the creations of ordinary mind (sem)." Choying Dzod.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:43 am

Ok, I get it Namdrol, I am criticized for scripturally unsupported positions, and then when I support my positions with absolutely appropriate texts, I am "cherry picking". What absurdity! Namdrol, you have no problem with the speciousness of your argument?
I am fully capable of discussing my positions with textual references in as much detail as required. I also have focused on actual practice as the greater emphasis of my path. The one supports and validates the other.

Regarding my recent quote, the entire text by Longchenpa is supporting my arguments, not just some isolated nonsequitor quote. Recently the criticism, when Lonchenpa's positions were obviously contrary to some here, it was said "well Longchenpa is not the only Dzogchen perspective, that one must integrate a broader view that includes other "masters". "
So it seems there is no willingness to relinquish fixed opinions that can't be supported on any level.
I politely refuse to engage further in this one-sided discussion.

I don't need to authenticate or validate my positions to you or Magnus. Your mind's are only reinforcing your prior and current prejudices.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:29 pm

Jax wrote:Ok, I get it Namdrol, I am criticized for scripturally unsupported positions, and then when I support my positions with absolutely appropriate texts, I am "cherry picking". What absurdity! Namdrol, you have no problem with the speciousness of your argument?
I am fully capable of discussing my positions with textual references in as much detail as required.


Well then do so. Producing a citation without context is meaningless -- that is called "cherry picking".

But in any event, as I said, it is a waste of time to argue about Dzogchen.

Chos dbyings mdzod is a great text, but it also contains a number of criticisms, for example, it criticizes the idea that our ordinary thoughts and concepts are self-originated wisdom; the play of rtsal yes, but wisdom, no.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:01 pm

Jax wrote:So it seems there is no willingness to relinquish fixed opinions that can't be supported on any level.


Jax, you are not in any position to tell anyone anything -- you have no authority whatsoever to speak of when it comes to Dzogchen with anyone who is not your student.

You are certainly welcome to share, but not to dictate -- clear?
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:26 pm

Jax wrote:I am fully capable of discussing my positions with textual references in as much detail as required.


When it comes to dancing on books, Jax, I am quite sure I am better at it than you.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Kelwin » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:32 pm

So, friends of the noble dharma. How can such a dispute be resolved?
And I mean that, seriously. Because you are people who have studied it for decades, explain it to others, both mean well, yet somehow can't agree. And let's be honest, this way it will never happen. Online debate is not going to help anyone anymore. Get out of your comfort zone! Pick up a phone, have diner even, talk, laugh, appreciate. And let us know the result when you're done :)

The one who really understands the teachings should be the first to see the joy in this :tongue:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Kelwin, I agree completely! :smile:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:19 pm

Kelwin wrote:Online debate is not going to help anyone anymore.


As I have pointed out many times.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby alpha » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:48 pm

well in that case the dzogchen forum can be closed.
I will get my share of entertainment on WWE....at least they have the fake blood...
AOM
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:53 pm

"At the time of the Buddha there was considerable debate amongst the Brahmin sects as to the precise nature of the Creator, and even as to whether a Creator existed. But instead of affirming or denying the existence of a Supreme Being as the first cause, the Buddha advised his disciples to leave aside all doubts and speculation and to strive to attain the state of Enlightenment in which questions disappear and clarity manifests.
At the level of what we ourselves actually experience in our lives it is clear where transmigration begins; it begins in any instant in which we enter into dualism just as it ends when we rediscover the primordial state, which is beyond all limits, including the limits of time, and of words and concepts".

Excerpt from "The Crystal and the Way of Light" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, page 90, 91.
Last edited by Dronma on Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Paul » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:54 pm

I doubt I would have come across dzogchen teachings if it were not for the internet, but I am always a bit uncomfortable in it being discussed. I personally think that the more I've learnt, the more the need for secrecy on some topics has become evident. It really pains me to see people grabbing the wrong end of the stick with many dzogchen topics - it is worryingly common online.
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Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby CapNCrunch » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:34 pm

well in that case the dzogchen forum can be closed.
I will get my share of entertainment on WWE....at least they have the fake blood..


While things aren't necessarily resolved through discussion, (they seldom are, even when you're dealing w/ subjects that lend themselves well to logical argumentation, to say nothing of a subject like Dzogchen, which is experiential and ultimately beyond logic) the citations, references, etc. that arise from such banter are like little treasures for someone like me who keeps a file and collects them :)

Especially when those who read understand the teachings as well as Tibetan will share a snippet or two - or when someone with pure motivation who has real understanding shares something that is helpful given my limited experience and understanding.

These kinds of benefits won't arise in a vacuum, so for those who can live with the signal-to-noise and are willing to sift a bit through the dross, I'm certain that there is more benefit than potential harm - a mixed proposition for a degenerate age, but better than nothing, as long as everyone plays nice.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby alpha » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:41 pm

If dzogchen cannot be debated and there is no point in discussing about dzogchen what is the need for all the texts on dzogchen which are widely available.
It seems that the effort of the translators has been in vain.
AOM
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:48 pm

The point is not all that, to be friendly, to drink together or I don't know what else? ... the point is that if someone spread wrong or incomplete informations, on a teacher mode, on this forum, someone have to point it out, for the protection of those who are still in doubt and can be brought on wrong tracks. And that what Namdrol is trying to do. That's all!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby alpha » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:52 pm

well...i understand that.... but if there is this danger where some people may spread misinformation and disclose aspects of the teaching which should be kept secret then i think that such forum shouldnt exist
AOM
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:58 pm

alpha wrote:well...i understand that.... but if there is this danger where some people may spread misinformation and disclose aspects of the teaching which should be kept secret then i think that such forum shouldnt exist


It's a point of view ... on another hand, it is helpful to have the possibility to question knowledgable one, like Namdrol, on detail points or on text we don't have access because we do not read Tibetan. ChNNR always encourages us to question olders practitioners.
And it's true that from time to time there is a game of power, but since the time most of us are connected together (e-sangha time) it has worked pretty well ... I've learn a lot from those exchanges ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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