Dzogchen and Free Will

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Kilaya. » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kilaya. wrote:
Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?


Simply put, one's body remains in an impure conditioned state since subtle particles are still conditioned phenomena. It means you have not removed all traces of affliction and karma in your psycho-physical continuum.


This is an interesting subject, mind if I ask more?
What happens after that? You continue to exist in some subtle form? Or you take birth again in a physical body and practice until you attain the highest level of realization?
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kilaya. wrote:
Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?


Simply put, one's body remains in an impure conditioned state since subtle particles are still conditioned phenomena. It means you have not removed all traces of affliction and karma in your psycho-physical continuum.


Is that the difference between normal rainbow body and phowa chenpo, where it is said that they did not even manifest death?

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:32 pm

Kilaya. wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Kilaya. wrote:
Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?


Simply put, one's body remains in an impure conditioned state since subtle particles are still conditioned phenomena. It means you have not removed all traces of affliction and karma in your psycho-physical continuum.


This is an interesting subject, mind if I ask more?
What happens after that? You continue to exist in some subtle form? Or you take birth again in a physical body and practice until you attain the highest level of realization?


You again take rebirth until you eradicate all traces.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Mariusz » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:The situation is not so dramatic :smile: There are many other still living masters of Dzogchen now, just for practice with.


I don't know these other teachers personally, so I cannot recommend them.
I did not ask you since I don't know you personally too. Even I don't know if you have the ability to recognize them briefly. Simply check the lineage, ask other masters you know personally, find the references, for example: Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom The Life and Legacy of His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche. by Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche. Samye Translation Group. Snow Lion Publications; page 140;

The perfect teacher was H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, the regent of Guru Padma-
sambhava. He possessed all the qualities of the great masters and was
teacher to an array of great teachers. The perfect retinue included such stu-
dents as Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Thubten Chökyi
Gyatso, Palyul Choktrul, Palri Kyabgön, Gangteng Tulku Kunzang Pema
Namgyal
, Lhalung Sungtrul, Dungse Thinley Norbu...
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:34 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Kilaya. wrote:
Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?


Simply put, one's body remains in an impure conditioned state since subtle particles are still conditioned phenomena. It means you have not removed all traces of affliction and karma in your psycho-physical continuum.


Is that the difference between normal rainbow body and phowa chenpo, where it is said that they did not even manifest death?

Sönam


The difference is that with so called normal rainbow body you realize the exhaustion of phenomena while in the bardo of dharmatā i.e. during thugdam, whereas in phowa chenpo you realize this during this lifetime.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:40 pm

Dear Adamantine this may be true:
Adamantine wrote:I don't agree Greg. Someone here is a self-appointed Dzogchen guru, who disparages their own tsawai Lama.
But his disparagement is not occuring here and now, so...
They compose posts here from the POV of a Guru instructing others, when no one here has accepted them as a guru.
Well, only on one occasion Jax recommended that somebody practice shamatha for stabilisation. Recomending Sutra based practices does not mean that somebody is setting themselves up as a guru. Now remember that I am talking only within the context of posts at Dharmawheel.
They disregard the Buddhist and Vajrayana context of Dzogchen, declaring it as a stand-alone tradition-- while simultaneously they are teaching and leading retreats where they mix it up with Christian, Sufi, and other traditions!
This may be so outside of Dharmawheel, but Jax is not doing that here. The only thing that I have seen him quote from thus far are Dzogchen texts. Oh... and a Jamgon Kongtrul quote, but JK was a Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioner and lineage holder if I remember correctly?
And in the midst of all this missionary work of guru self-promotion, they also tell us nobody needs a guru, Buddha and Garab Dorje did it themselves--access the guru within-- This is a manic Molotov cocktail of contradiction!
Yes, well, here I will have to agree with you. For me this is wghere it starts to get weird. Especially when you consider that in other threads he has admitted having personally received pointing out instructions from ChNN.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:02 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear Adamantine this may be true:
Adamantine wrote:I don't agree Greg. Someone here is a self-appointed Dzogchen guru, who disparages their own tsawai Lama.
But his disparagement is not occuring here and now, so...


Yes he has, but I'm not going to look after the quote ... you possibly may trust me!

They compose posts here from the POV of a Guru instructing others, when no one here has accepted them as a guru.
Well, only on one occasion Jax recommended that somebody practice shamatha for stabilisation. Recomending Sutra based practices does not mean that somebody is setting themselves up as a guru. Now remember that I am talking only within the context of posts at Dharmawheel.


no, this is another case, in the present threat (something like page 2 or 3):

"Keep it simple.. If it's not clear then more shamatha is necessary. I always recommend a very strong foundation of shamatha and vipassana sitting practice as a preliminary. In shamatha or shine' one observes that thoughts arise and dissolve all on their own, no one is doing thinking."

They disregard the Buddhist and Vajrayana context of Dzogchen, declaring it as a stand-alone tradition-- while simultaneously they are teaching and leading retreats where they mix it up with Christian, Sufi, and other traditions!
This may be so outside of Dharmawheel, but Jax is not doing that here. The only thing that I have seen him quote from thus far are Dzogchen texts. Oh... and a Jamgon Kongtrul quote, but JK was a Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioner and lineage holder if I remember correctly?


when one posits him self as a guru, one is able to look for what he says, in general. So to limit the discussion to Dharmawheel is to limit the view about it.

And in the midst of all this missionary work of guru self-promotion, they also tell us nobody needs a guru, Buddha and Garab Dorje did it themselves--access the guru within-- This is a manic Molotov cocktail of contradiction!
Yes, well, here I will have to agree with you. For me this is wghere it starts to get weird. Especially when you consider that in other threads he has admitted having personally received pointing out instructions from ChNN.
:namaste:


Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:36 pm

In point of fact, Norbu Rinpoche maintains the rga thal gyur is the most important text of Dzogchen.

So Namdrol, has this text been translated into English? And if so where does one find it? A little info on this text would be greatly appreciated by many here Im sure.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
In point of fact, Norbu Rinpoche maintains the rga thal gyur is the most important text of Dzogchen.

So Namdrol, has this text been translated into English? And if so where does one find it? A little info on this text would be greatly appreciated by many here Im sure.



Nope it has not been translated into English. One of the reasons there is so very little understanding of Dzogchen is that very little of the basic and seminal literature of Dzogchen has been translated into English. The Kun byed rgyal po for example exists one very bad translation by Eva Neumeyer-Dargye and a partial translation by Adriano Clemente. Jim Valby has been translating a two volume commentary on it that is being publishedin sections and is available from SSI bookstore.

Most of the other texts that are being published are rather late compendiums like Yeshe Lama which are summaries of the main points of the teaching. But the early material sits neglected, piling dust, and acting as nests for insects.

As far as Longchenpa's works go -- I am not very keen on the translations of those that presently exist. In his native language, Longchenpa is a difficult writer at best, very, very intellectual, and the english renditions of his works do not do justice to his writings, I am afraid. People seem to think it is necessary to pile on foreign intellectual bullshit on top of what is already very difficult writing.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
In point of fact, Norbu Rinpoche maintains the rga thal gyur is the most important text of Dzogchen.

So Namdrol, has this text been translated into English? And if so where does one find it? A little info on this text would be greatly appreciated by many here Im sure.



Nope it has not been translated into English. One of the reasons there is so very little understanding of Dzogchen is that very little of the basic and seminal literature of Dzogchen has been translated into English. The Kun byed rgyal po for example exists one very bad translation by Eva Neumeyer-Dargye and a partial translation by Adriano Clemente. Jim Valby has been translating a two volume commentary on it that is being publishedin sections and is available from SSI bookstore.

Most of the other texts that are being published are rather late compendiums like Yeshe Lama which are summaries of the main points of the teaching. But the early material sits neglected, piling dust, and acting as nests for insects.

As far as Longchenpa's works go -- I am not very keen on the translations of those that presently exist. In his native language, Longchenpa is a difficult writer at best, very, very intellectual, and the english renditions of his works do not do justice to his writings, I am afraid. People seem to think it is necessary to pile on foreign intellectual bullshit on top of what is already very difficult writing.


Any chance you are at work translating some of these texts? If not, need we make a formal request?
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:59 pm

Adamantine...I second that request. Especially regarding the rga thal gyur, considering that Rinpoche places such high value on it.
Namdrol, is the rga thal gyur ridiculously long? And if it isnt too terribly long please please please with sugar on top translate it for us poor deluded struggling shmucks out here.
BTW, what does rga thal gyur mean in English? and who was it written by etc?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Fa Dao wrote: BTW, what does rga thal gyur mean in English? and who was it written by etc?


Reverberation Of Sound/Penetration Of Sound

Listed here along with the others:

http://yoniversum.nl/daktexts/tantras17.html

I started a thread awhile back trying to see which ones had been translated and where to find them, but unfortunately not many are available at the moment... Hopefully that changes!
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:20 pm

From what I've gathered by searching Dharmawheel and by referencing Longchenpa's The Practice of Dzogchen by Tulku Thondup, and the Thupten Jinpa translation of the Bar-do—Thos-grol, is that the Rainbow Body proper is the fruition of Anuyoga-Tantra and/or Anuttarayoga-Tantra; and that the "Rainbow Body" is a general term used for the various fruitions of Dzogchen even though technically the Rainbow Body is of Anuyoga Tantra (although as Namdrol has said, Anuyoga Tantra's aim is Atiyoga from the very beginning).

In any case, this discussion might be better continued in the following thread, considering the compiled Tibetan words for the various Bodies found therein:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5875&p=76983&hilit=Trekch%C3%B6#p66009

A couple questions for the above thread, which Body is it that leaves behind only the nails and hair, and which Body is it where the physical body shrinks to the size of a dinner plate?
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Dronma » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:A couple questions for the above thread, which Body is it that leaves behind only the nails and hair, and which Body is it where the physical body shrinks to the size of a dinner plate?


From what I have understood until now, the Rainbow Body leaves behind only the nails and hair. But the Great Transference leaves no traces behind, everything disappears, like Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava did. But the latter is very rare and difficult to attain as ChNN is saying often.
When the physical body shrinks to a very small size is not called Rainbow Body. Although it is a sign of very high accomplishment.
In the case I have misunderstood something, please correct me.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:04 pm

Dronma wrote:When the physical body shrinks to a very small size is not called Rainbow Body. Although it is a sign of very high accomplishment.
In the case I have misunderstood something, please correct me. [/color]


I have heard this referred to as "partial" rainbow body. . . curious to know more detailed info though.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:52 am

Greg, to clarify my position on the need for a Guru. My point is that it is not necessary to have a Guru for realization to arise. Of course it is highly recommended to have a teacher who knows the ground well experientialy. Regarding Dzogchen, I have always recommended that people receive transmission. The transmission that I received from Norbu could have been conveyed to me via an excellent book with the same information. It was just an explanation from him Semde style... that clicked for me. It could certainly have been conveyed from a video from him or even skype. His being physically present was not relevant. My deepest "transmission" occurred as the result of gTumo practice.( Kundlalini yoga). All of one's karmic prana dissolves in the central channel, and sem (dualistic mind) collapses (nirvikalpa samadhi) completely revealing naked, timeless Rigpa Awareness. One can achieve that without a Guru transmission, just do the practice. It is a self to self transmission as Trungpa describes it. He said true transmission does not come from outside of oneself, but from within to oneself. As Norbu says "a perfect Guru yoga is to just recognize one's own State".
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:17 am

Jax wrote: My deepest "transmission" occurred as the result of gTumo practice.( Kundlalini yoga). All of one's karmic prana dissolves in the central channel, and sem (dualistic mind) collapses (nirvikalpa samadhi) completely revealing naked, timeless Rigpa Awareness.


Jax I grew up practicing kundalini yoga, and have transmission and experience of gTumo, and it seems very odd to conflate the two. It's also odd that for someone so outspoken about Dzogchen being a stand-alone tradition and expressing here that tantra contaminated it, that you would admit that your deepest transmission was through an anuyoga practice. This is just another contradiction to add to a quickly elongating list. . .

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:25 am

Jax wrote:
The transmission that I received from Norbu could have been conveyed to me via an excellent book with the same information.


The Kun byed rgyal po has an entire chapter (chapter 83) on how a devoted student should relate to their guru:

    The heart of the teachings, the Kulayarāja, should be given
    to one who swears "For as long as I and the master should live,
    while life and body remain connected,
    your commands will be accomplished".


It is just not the case that a guru is optional in Dzogchen. No Guru, no Dzogchen. Period.

Further, in chapter 27 the Kun byed rgyal po states very clearly:

    The inauthentic master teaches scripture like a monkey,
    his false path beset with concepts.


And it states:

    The master who displays the truth is a precious treasury
    worth an inestimable price.


So this is what authentic Dzogchen teachings state.



N
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:20 am

Adamantine, gTumo yoga is kundalini yoga. Norbu calls "thigle" kundalini. Thigle is kundalini. I am not mixing anything. Why do you think Milarepa praised gTumo so highly? Because people could sit in the snow and melt it? gTumo is not about "heat", its about bliss and realization. If you bring all of the karmic pranas into the central channel, they transform into "yeshe", the yeshe of "rang jyung yeshe", the Knowingness of Rigpa. This is the key to tantric transformation. The result is Rigpa or Mahamudra. Are you saying that the realization of Mahamudra is not Rigpa? The subtlest mind, the mind of Clear Light, is revealed as a result of this practice. Why do you think in the Yeshe Lama it is instructed that one do daily sessions of gTumo yoga when in a thogal retreat?
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:59 am

Jax wrote:Adamantine, gTumo yoga is kundalini yoga. Norbu calls "thigle" kundalini. Thigle is kundalini. I am not mixing anything.


I have not personally heard him say this, but if he has than I wonder why. I have certainly never heard other Lamas refer to thigle this way. Thigle is not something confined to the base of the spine. What is widely referred to as "kundalini yoga" is a hindu practice of awakening the serpent-energy which is considered to be locked within the center at the base of the spine in the majority, mainly through shaktipat transmission, but there are various forceful and subtle ways to try to arouse it .. this can happen very spontaneously, and powefully, and often kriyas and other manifestations occur (sometimes people even exhibit psychotic symptoms.) The movement of energy is quick and intense.. Now I don't want to get into the details of gTummo practice online but it is, in my experience, a much different process, much slower, involving visualization and pranayama specific to the Buddhist yogas, and there is an equal emphasis on ascent and descent of different energies. . (red and white). The emphasis of the chakras is different too. I have had elaborate conversations with Kurt Kuetzer also about this, who likewise was very familiar with practicing both traditions. Perhaps the sanskrit word Kundalini could be used to refer to gTumo but I would say this is akin to the word coke. On the one hand, we have a caffeinated bubbly beverage, on the other, we have a white powder that is a serious drug. Historically there is a relation, but they no longer share much in common. If you have experience with Kundalini yoga, and find it to be identical to gTumo, I am curious how.

Why do you think Milarepa praised gTumo so highly? Because people could sit in the snow and melt it? gTumo is not about "heat", its about bliss and realization. If you bring all of the karmic pranas into the central channel, they transform into "yeshe", the yeshe of "rang jyung yeshe", the Knowingness of Rigpa. This is the key to tantric transformation. The result is Rigpa or Mahamudra. Are you saying that the realization of Mahamudra is not Rigpa? The subtlest mind, the mind of Clear Light, is revealed as a result of this practice. Why do you think in the Yeshe Lama it is instructed that one do daily sessions of gTumo yoga when in a thogal retreat?


I have no doubt about the power of gTumo or it's usefulness for realization. You don't need to teach me what it is about, as I said I have had extensive teachings on it from a qualified Guru. My point was that in other posts you seem very eager to place Dzogchen as a whole outside of the context of Buddhism, and especially Vajrayana-- but here you are pointing to the opposite-- how entwined they are. gTumo, you must know, is an anuyoga practice, right?
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