Dzogchen and Free Will

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby muni » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:44 am

Small boys need many sand for their castles, tall boys need many words for...

Put a line: here I build Mine. :tongue:

No free will in the fully convinced dream.

(ps i have not read posts, only two-three words, many many words are dancing).
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:08 am

Namdrol wrote:Even were I to "tell all" they still will not understand because the nine yānas are all paths based on mind, where as true Dzogchen goes beyond mind and is based on wisdom from the very beginning. Further, this basis in wisdom is based on one's personal experience which arises from one's interaction with a guru, and not on any sort of intellectual analysis.

"If you consider the rootlessness
of the real, well,

it's revealed
through the guru's teaching.

Saraha says: Fool!
Know this well -

samsaric distinctions
are forms of mind."


"Meditation:
why look for freedom in a lie?

The net of illusion:
why hold it so tight?

Trust in the truth
of the precious guru's word;

Saraha syas:
I've made my declaration."


Saraha in Tantric Treasures: Three Collections of Mystical Verse from Buddhist India http://www.scribd.com/doc/62738761/Tantric-Treasures
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:09 am

Jax wrote:Namdrol, unfortunately those challenging posts are often buried within a litany of critique and assumptions that really are most often too convoluted and rhetorical to respond. It would be great if there was one question, clean and simple quoting one of my comments alone that I can sensibly respond to. I have responded to many specific questions in great detail. I try to answer several points in one response that should clarify several related questions. I apologize if I missed some questions. I will try to do better... :smile:


So please do better ...

To begin with, this is from another threat only to support the idea that you posit your self as e teacher, ...
"White Lotus, I would recommend more shamatha. Examine the origin, abiding and cessation of thoughts until their emptiness is obvious."

... and then it justifies the following, it is not a critique or assumption, for free.

Can you then explain (detailled explanayion) the following ... because it would help the sincere searchers.
Way of Light

We will explore the teachings on the realization of the Divine Light as in ancient Christian, Sufi,Jewish Mysticism,Taoism, Buddhism,Dzogchen, Bon and any other authentic "Light" teachings. The Way of Light is a new approach and path for those who wish to practice without ritual, religious dogma, or cultural bias. We utilize only the essential and most direct methods for attaining Enlightment in this very life. The essential instructions are to be found in the Way of Light Awareness series also posted on our website: http://wayoflight.net
The Guru for this path is your own Heart of Awareness. Learning how to live a joyous life of service, guided by the Light of your own inherent Goodness, Love and Compassion for the benefit of all beings, is the Way of Light.

The Dalai Lama has stated:

"I believe deeply that we must find, all of us together, a new spirituality. This new concept ought to be elaborated alongside the religions in such a way that all people of good will could adhere to it."

Also visit our website: http://wayoflight.net

Welcome!

Jax
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Way-of-Light/


and please, for coherence, do not hesitate to use only Longchen Rabjam's explanations from the Choying Dzod, cause as you said "Lonchenpa's Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission from his Choying Dzod. I would read it several times (over 400 pages) and really contemplate the meaning line by line. No other Dzogchen teachings are necessary, it is a complete handbook outlining the view and has the power to awaken Rigpa in the sincere reader."

On the top of that, do not forget that you are in the Dzogchen forum.

Enjoy!
Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Mariusz » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:12 am

Namdrol wrote:with people who do not have transmission, who do not have the fortune to meet an authentic teacher of Dzogchen like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, Loppon Tenzin Namdak and so on, to name three, still living, masters of Dzogchen

N
The situation is not so dramatic :smile: There are many other still living masters of Dzogchen now, just for practice with. For example this year will be trekcho retreat, the next one from the cycle of Khandro Nyinthig from Pema Lingpa by HE Gangteng Rinpoche in Poland. What is obvious in this forum there are too many mixings of instructions, proofs, recommendations, advertising, and so on, which could be confusing only, but not enough madhyamaka which is always suitable for investigation, and helpful whatever the topic.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:33 am

As Buddha and Garab Dorje attained perfect illumination without a Guru, learn to access the Guru within. Only you can "recognize", no one can do that for you. I am not aware of any fully realized masters alive today. But there are wonderful teachers who offer guidance freely and skillfully.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby heart » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:34 am

Jax wrote:Like I said Namdrol, I have not violated any samaya that I have pledged to honor, especially not any that I have never been told about by m teachers. What you are quoting is a mish mash of Dzogchen and Tantric precepts. Norbu has said numerous times that "if you want to know the real, authentic Dzogchen you must refer to the only Kama text we have, the Kunje Gyalpo." None of the contamination by tantric influence is present in KJG. Here the real Dzogchen view is made clear. Norbu said later teachings incorporated Tantric and Vajrayana elements in order to survive in a hostile world of Sarma power players who were doing their best to discredit Dzogchen as a valid Buddhist teaching. These are the words of your teacher. You also unjustly disparage the profound Semde lineage by relegating it to "mere intellectual" understanding. Semde has the same power as the Mahamudra tradition in being able to bring one to full and total realization. Did you forget the Four Yogas of Semde practice? Semde is a complete and perfect path. I teach from the Semde perspective as it is most attuned to the intellectual proclivities of Westerners.


You are showing your true colors Jax. But instead of jumping up and down on your words I would like to ask you to reconsider Namdrol's actually very kind and respectful answers to your posts above. It is a great window of opportunity to deepen your understanding of Dzogchen.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby muni » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:35 am

Master told about his cat, always doing what she should not do. In that way it is very stressful for "me- mind" to try to cut through habits of "others-mind".



Only through genuine love as quality of (nondual) wisdom can cut through. Disrespecting this is pride thinking to have invented our own breath and having fully control of this.



WRITTEN ON WAT~E~~r~~~~~~~~
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:06 am

Some more light ...

As far as ...
Mañjushrimitra received permission from Garab Dorje to collect all these teachings, one of which is the three statements of Garab Dorje:
1. Direct Introduction
2. Not Remaining in Doubt
3. Continuing in That State
He understood that these three statements of Garab Dorje really represent the essence of the Dzogchen teachings, and are also the guidelines of the Dzogchen teachings. For learning, teaching, and applying, all the teachings are related to these three statements. For that reason, he divided all Dzogchen tantras and lungs transmitted by Garab Dorje into these three Series. The Semde is related to the first statement, the Longde to the second statement, and the Upadesha to the last statement.
ChNNR


how can you justify that kind of statement :
Jax wrote:I teach from the Semde perspective as it is most attuned to the intellectual proclivities of Westerners.


Thank you for your (second) precise answer ...
Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby CapNCrunch » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:14 am

The situation is not so dramatic


Drama is as drama does :smile:

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, Loppon Tenzin Namdak and so on, to name three
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby muni » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:04 am

wisdom has no name with position. there is no position.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche very humble warned for teaching mere words lacking a single grain of compassion, disparaging others...this he told to help all of us.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:36 am

Jax wrote:As Buddha and Garab Dorje attained perfect illumination without a Guru, learn to access the Guru within. Only you can "recognize", no one can do that for you. I am not aware of any fully realized masters alive today. But there are wonderful teachers who offer guidance freely and skillfully.


Jax, please read Longchenpa's commentary on the Guhyagarbha tantra, for an understanding of the different levels of understanding the Buddha's life story.

I mean, it sounds like you are comparing yourself to a nirmanakaya emanation. . .

If you don't perceive your own living Guru as 'fully' realized, then this would be considered a flaw in your practice.

From Patrul Rinpoche's The Words of My Perfect Teacher:

"Better than meditating on a hundred thousand deities
For ten million kalpas
Is to think of one's teacher for a single instant.

This is especially true in this particular vehicle, the heart essence of the natural Great Perfection, the vajra core-teaching. Here it is not taught that the profound truth should be established on the basis of analysis and logic, as is the practice in the lower vehicles. Nor is it said that common accomplishments should be used in order to finally obtain supreme accomplishment, as in the lower tantras. The use of the illustrative primal wisdom of the third empowerment to introduce true primal wisdom is not stressed, as it is in the other higher tantras. What is taught in this tradition is to pray with fervent devotion and complete faith to a supremely realized teacher whose lineage is like a golden chain untarnished by any variance with the samayas, to rely on him alone and to consider him to be a real Buddha; in this way, your mind will merge completely with his. By the power of his blessings being transferred to you, realization will take birth. As we have quoted before:

Innate absolute wisdom can only come
As the mark of having accumulated merit and purified obscurations
And through the blessings of a realized teacher.
Know that to rely on any other means is foolish.

Also:
"By not examining a teacher with great care
The faithful waste their gathered merit.
Like taking for the shadow of a tree a vicious snake,
Beguiled, they lose the freedom they at last had found.

After examining him carefully and making an unmistaken assessment, from the moment you find a teacher has all the positive qualities mentioned
you should never cease to consider him to be the Buddha in person. This teacher in whom all the attributes are complete is the embodiment of the compassionate
wisdom of all Buddhas of the ten directions, appearing in the form of an ordinary human simply to benefit beings. . . .


So that such a true teacher may skilfully guide the ordinary people needing his help, he makes his everyday conduct conform to that of ordinary people. But
in reality his wisdom mind is that of a Buddha, so he is utterly different from everyone else. Each of his acts is simply the activity of a realized being attuned to the nature of those he has to benefit. He is therefore uniquely noble. Skilled in cutting through hesitation and doubt, he patiently endures all the ingratitude and discouragement of his disciples, like a mother with her only child."


If you think that a critique of your root Guru/s is a reflection of your own realization I beg you to reconsider the essence of the very lineage you purport to be teaching.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:11 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:Drama is as drama does :smile:
It's more a case, right now, of:
Is Dharma as you do Dharma?
If you knew Dharma like I know Dharma, would you do Dharma like I do Dharma?
Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:32 pm

I don't agree Greg. Someone here is a self-appointed
Dzogchen guru, who disparages their own tsawai Lama.
They compose posts here from the POV of a Guru
instructing others, when no one here has accepted them as a guru.
They disregard the Buddhist and Vajrayana
context of Dzogchen,
declaring it as a stand-alone tradition-- while simultaneously they
are teaching and leading retreats where they mix it up with
Christian, Sufi, and other traditions! And in the midst of
all this missionary work of guru self-promotion, they also tell us nobody needs a guru,
Buddha and Garab Dorje did it themselves--access the guru within-- This is a manic Molotov cocktail
of contradiction!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:11 pm

Jax wrote:Like I said Namdrol, I have not violated any samaya that I have pledged to honor, especially not any that I have never been told about by m teachers.


I never said you violated samaya -- I merely corrected your statement that you do not have any.

What you are quoting is a mish mash of Dzogchen and Tantric precepts.


No, what I am citing comes directly from the man ngag sde tantras themselves.

Norbu has said numerous times that "if you want to know the real, authentic Dzogchen you must refer to the only Kama text we have, the Kunje Gyalpo."


This is not Norbu Rinpoche's point of view at all. Moreover, there are many kama texts, the eighteen sems sde lungs of Dzogchen, etc. The reason ChNN started teaching sems sde is that his students were not understanding man ngag sde properly.

None of the contamination by tantric influence is present in KJG.


Nonesense. You have bought into a rather warped version of Dzogchen history-- the fantasy that at one time there was a pristine Dzogchen removed from all tantric influence -- it is a ludicrous propostion considering the sheer amount of tantric topics that are brought up in the kun byed rgyal po, even if they are brought up to be dismissed.

Norbu said later teachings incorporated Tantric and Vajrayana elements in order to survive in a hostile world of Sarma power players who were doing their best to discredit Dzogchen as a valid Buddhist teaching. These are the words of your teacher.


Norbu Rinpoche is here referring to the treasure tradition where Dzogchen teachings were combined with anuyoga cycles of practice for example, the Khandro Nyinthig, Gongpa Zangthal and so on. However, even here, the Khandro Nyinthg, for example, contains some of the clearest teachings there are on man ngag sde. The Gongpa Zangthal contains many tantras there are pure man ngag sde. It also contains a Shitro cycle, it also contains a cycle on Vajrayogini.

The Vima Nyinthig, however is considered Kama, just like the seventeen tantras.

In point of fact, Norbu Rinpoche maintains the rga thal gyur is the most important text of Dzogchen. The types of doctrines present in man ngag sde are very radical compared to the kun byed rgyal po.

Semde has the same power as the Mahamudra tradition in being able to bring one to full and total realization.


Sems sde will not lead to rainbow body, as ChNN has stated many times.

[/quote]I teach from the Semde perspective as it is most attuned to the intellectual proclivities of Westerners.[/quote]

I don't agree that Semsde is most attuned to westerners. With respect, I think this is total bullshit. I will agree however that Sems sde has the most detailed presentation of the view. After all, sems sde is mostly about view.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:13 pm

Mariusz wrote:The situation is not so dramatic :smile: There are many other still living masters of Dzogchen now, just for practice with.


I don't know these other teachers personally, so I cannot recommend them.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Kilaya. » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Sems sde will not lead to rainbow body, as ChNN has stated many times.



Is trekchö not part of the semde cycle? I heard from the above mentioned Lama that by perfecting trekchö one attains the rainbow body, while thögal leads to phowa chenpo.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Kilaya. wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Sems sde will not lead to rainbow body, as ChNN has stated many times.



Is trekchö not part of the semde cycle? I heard from the above mentioned Lama that by perfecting trekchö one attains the rainbow body, while thögal leads to phowa chenpo.


Trekcho is not sems sde. Trekchö's result is that body dissolves into subtle particles. This is called "rainbow body" but is not true rainbow body, as the above lama, as well as many other masters, have clarified over the centuries.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Kilaya. » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kilaya. wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Sems sde will not lead to rainbow body, as ChNN has stated many times.



Is trekchö not part of the semde cycle? I heard from the above mentioned Lama that by perfecting trekchö one attains the rainbow body, while thögal leads to phowa chenpo.


Trekcho is not sems sde. Trekchö's result is that body dissolves into subtle particles. This is called "rainbow body" but is not true rainbow body, as the above lama, as well as many other masters, have clarified over the centuries.


Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:09 pm

Jax wrote:As Buddha and Garab Dorje attained perfect illumination without a Guru, learn to access the Guru within.



No Jax -- this is not how it is. Buddha and Garab Dorje were emanations, nirmanakāyas. They did not attain anything.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:11 pm

Kilaya. wrote:
Okay, what's the difference? I mean, how is the real rainbow body superior to your body dissolving into subtle particles?


Simply put, one's body remains in an impure conditioned state since subtle particles are still conditioned phenomena. It means you have not removed all traces of affliction and karma in your psycho-physical continuum.
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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