No-self and Rigpa

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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Jax » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:17 pm

Sun, your Lonchenpa quotes and other commentary were nothing less than sheer brilliance! The kind of brilliance that transforms the darkness of marigpa into pure Clarity. Bows!!
I would add that when one is as Rigpa, one's energy winds are stably in the central channel. Direct recognition is the illumination of the Wisdom Clear Light (o'dsal) that always resides in the central channel( and Kati). The means are different but the result is identical.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby muni » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:35 am

Jax wrote:W........ yet I know a precise intellectual understanding regarding Dzogchen has nothing to do with non-conceptual self-knowing or yeshe. The one doesn't lead to the other...

If we use the texts to analyse like in academical way, like our thinking mind automatically is used to do... its reaction to understand it in such way, then the meaning is hidden through that. Then this is like trying to understand the dept of the sea by analysing/fixating the movement of waves. ( void and appaerance separate)It is a habit which is so strong and when we approach words in that way, i don't think it can 'lead me' like you say.

I don't think something is wrong with the Tibetan Dzogchen and the genuine masters "nonaction"-transmission at all, nature cannot be wrong. Not the teaching is the problem, it has directly transmission, but mind its habits are so strong, enslaved in analysing thoughts. These are keeping us busy, to scratch with a stick in the earth to 'seek' the sky.

Maybe, it is more like a Chinese master said: surrender.

Apologize to say, no need to not respect anyone here or any method (!), but no master = no Dzogchen.

:namaste:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:19 am

Sönam wrote:We cannot speak of personnal experiences on a forum, it brings us nowhere, so I have no idea of the quality of your experience ...
Yes, I am aware of this but it's like a "catch 22 situation", these are expereinces that cannot be explained without mention to experiences but it is not considered correct to talk about experiences. :smile:
...certainly there is a possibility that shunyata could be not so blank, and joy may feel the experience ... but if shunyata is filled with energy/movement, than it's no more shunyata.
Are you saying (and I am not saying that I have realised sunyata) that the realisation of sunyata cannot be a blissful experience? Why, do you believe, that it cannot be?
Could it be possible that the "incredible surge of what I refer to as clarity and energy; like a pulsating living quality, but without a specific source" would be a subtle intellectual process following shunyata?
Yes, it could quite well be, but any serious sati practitioner should be able to pick up if it is a mental process or not. You are right though, it could be subtle beyond my personal capacity to detect it. But couldn't the same thing be argued for a Dzogchen practitioner too? I know, this is where one needs the presence of a qualified teacher to point out the flaws! :smile: As you know quite well, this system of reliance on the guru exists in Mahamudra too.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby wisdomfire » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:47 am

xabir wrote:
wisdomfire wrote:
if experienced without an observer-observed dichotomy, transience is experienced as whole and complete in a single moment of manifestation without movement, and are also disjoint and self-releasing.


Can you break this up and explain it further? How is transience whole and complete? Also, 'disjoint and self-releasing'?
Movement is perceived when it is falsely perceived that there is some unchanging self-entity that links two moments together.

For example as a bystanding observer on the roadside, it appears that a car quickly moves through your field of vision. So it appears that you, as an observer, observed an object moving across. What if however, you are on a vehicle moving at the same speed as the other vehicle, do you perceive movement of another vehicle? No. Why? Because the observer is now at the same speed as the observed object, and movement only occurs as a contrast between the unmoving subject and a moved object.

But what if there is no observer at all (which is what we realised to have been always the case in the insight into anatta - the observer being merely a constructed illusion) - with no reference point, is there movement? No. Because movement requires a dualistic contrast, and without a perceiving subject, perceptions have no reference point to compare with. In fact there is no 'perceived object' either - there is just disjoint, unsupported, self-releasing images that has no link to each other. Without a self and an object, only unsupported and disjoint images, each manifestation being complete and whole in itself with no dualistic contrast, transience reveals itself to be non-moving. You don't say "You" walked from Point A to Point Z. Because there is no 'You' there to link or observe movement. Instead, Point A is Point A, Point B is point B, and so on... Z is Z, whole and complete in itself. Each moment, ever fresh, whole, complete, and leaving no trace the next moment. Therefore disjoint and self-releasing.


i see, very clear. Thanks for the detailed explanation. :thanks: :meditate:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:09 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Sönam wrote:...certainly there is a possibility that shunyata could be not so blank, and joy may feel the experience ... but if shunyata is filled with energy/movement, than it's no more shunyata.
Are you saying (and I am not saying that I have realised sunyata) that the realisation of sunyata cannot be a blissful experience? Why, do you believe, that it cannot be?


joy may feel the experience ... therefore shunyata can be a blisful experience. The question that could be asked, is the blisful experience following (apparently manifesting instantaneously) shunyata a part of the experience, or a subtle reaction to the intellectual consequences of shunyata?

Anyway we ,poor searchers, won't be able to answer those questions, except picking up opinions of others ...

Sönam
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:14 pm

Greece is still in crisis...but there is hope as always :smile:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:14 pm

muni wrote:
Jax wrote:W........ yet I know a precise intellectual understanding regarding Dzogchen has nothing to do with non-conceptual self-knowing or yeshe. The one doesn't lead to the other...

If we use the texts to analyse like in academical way, like our thinking mind automatically is used to do... its reaction to understand it in such way, then the meaning is hidden through that. Then this is like trying to understand the dept of the sea by analysing/fixating the movement of waves. ( void and appaerance separate)It is a habit which is so strong and when we approach words in that way, i don't think it can 'lead me' like you say.

I don't think something is wrong with the Tibetan Dzogchen and the genuine masters "nonaction"-transmission at all, nature cannot be wrong. Not the teaching is the problem, it has directly transmission, but mind its habits are so strong, enslaved in analysing thoughts. These are keeping us busy, to scratch with a stick in the earth to 'seek' the sky.

Maybe, it is more like a Chinese master said: surrender.

Apologize to say, no need to not respect anyone here or any method (!), but no master = no Dzogchen.

:namaste:


Very wise words, indeed! :namaste:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:22 pm

alpha wrote:Greece is still in crisis...but there is hope as always :smile:


Greece is a place with a lot of energy, and lots of conflicts at the same time!
Don't forget that Greeks themselves were putting in prison or killing their great philosophers like Socrates, Hypatia etc.
It is a place who needs the energy to be tamed first, in order to be manifested as wisdom. ;)
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby alpha » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:45 pm

Dronma wrote:
alpha wrote:Greece is still in crisis...but there is hope as always :smile:


Greece is a place with a lot of energy, and lots of conflicts at the same time!
Don't forget that Greeks themselves were putting in prison or killing their great philosophers like Socrates, Hypatia etc.
It is a place who needs the energy to be tamed first, in order to be manifested as wisdom. ;)


waw....you must have read my mind...

I totally agree that by calming down you will be able to tame your mind and the wisdom will shine forth spontaneously.
Excellent. :twothumbsup: :namaste:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:53 pm

alpha wrote:
Dronma wrote:
alpha wrote:Greece is still in crisis...but there is hope as always :smile:


Greece is a place with a lot of energy, and lots of conflicts at the same time!
Don't forget that Greeks themselves were putting in prison or killing their great philosophers like Socrates, Hypatia etc.
It is a place who needs the energy to be tamed first, in order to be manifested as wisdom. ;)


waw....you must have read my mind...

I totally agree that by calming down you will be able to tame your mind and the wisdom will shine forth spontaneously.
Excellent. :twothumbsup: :namaste:


;) :thumbsup:
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:56 pm

Dronma wrote:
muni wrote:
Jax wrote:W........ yet I know a precise intellectual understanding regarding Dzogchen has nothing to do with non-conceptual self-knowing or yeshe. The one doesn't lead to the other...


Tashi delek,

Some prefer their own following order regarding Dzogchen Teachings.
Dzogchen starts with the intelect or ego for quite a time, this mind can get a logical insight regarding mind, which can result in the experience of Trekchod. Kordo Rushen goes before. Yeshe is a result of recognizing the experience of dissolving thoughts. So for me there is an interdependency or folowing order to get to the roof, which is mostly done ov er the stairs. So the point is here that some things (Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen) can lead to another thing if the preparation is accordingly. Many start on the roof instead of the sequential way over the stairs.



If we use the texts to analyse like in academical way, like our thinking mind automatically is used to do... its reaction to understand it in such way, then the meaning is hidden through that. Then this is like trying to understand the dept of the sea by analysing/fixating the movement of waves. ( void and appaerance separate)It is a habit which is so strong and when we approach words in that way, i don't think it can 'lead me' like you say.

Tashi delek,

Text can be only read by the intellect but reflected later in the practice (interdependency). When in Dzogchen terms understanding are the waves not separate from the depth of the sea (one flavour). Dualisms are not inside Dzogchen experience, but some non-Dzogchenpas have herewith problems in their approaching Dzogchen by an individual practice, but this experience does not count as the Dzogchen experience.


I don't think something is wrong with the Tibetan Dzogchen and the genuine masters "nonaction"-transmission at all, nature cannot be wrong. Not the teaching is the problem, it has directly transmission, but mind its habits are so strong, enslaved in analysing thoughts. These are keeping us busy, to scratch with a stick in the earth to 'seek' the sky.


Tashi delek,
For misunderstandings to correct, is this forum a good case. But on the other hand can the discovering of the own Nature, at best be guided by a Dzogchen Rigdzin because of the lineage and its "power". To be a Dzogchenpa is to be inside the lineage and there are some who dwell outside, single , autocratic without any support.

If these persons try to know more about Dzogchen here and would never join the Dzogchen Lineage, then they would have certainly a problem and that is what i am feeling here. So that is why there arise misunderstandings about what is Dzogchen .The way Master Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is explaining, that seems so the way how Dzogchen could be understood
here aboard. Here i must say that each Dzogchen Master is mostly explaining about his/her way of practice and Lineage.
Some of them explain the text according their experience, also remarkable.

Some explain Rigpa in that way others in that way. Some examples are egoless mind and Rigpa etc. So finally is there no one way in approaching Dzogchen, therefore also here the many misunderstandings about the same thing.

Mutsog Marro
KY




Maybe, it is more like a Chinese master said: surrender.

Apologize to say, no need to not respect anyone here or any method (!), but no master = no Dzogchen.

:namaste:


Very wise words, indeed! :namaste:
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:40 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:
Jax wrote:W........ yet I know a precise intellectual understanding regarding Dzogchen has nothing to do with non-conceptual self-knowing or yeshe. The one doesn't lead to the other...


Tashi delek,

Some prefer their own following order regarding Dzogchen Teachings.
Dzogchen starts with the intelect or ego for quite a time, this mind can get a logical insight regarding mind, which can result in the experience of Trekchod. Kordo Rushen goes before. Yeshe is a result of recognizing the experience of dissolving thoughts. So for me there is an interdependency or folowing order to get to the roof, which is mostly done ov er the stairs. So the point is here that some things (Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen) can lead to another thing if the preparation is accordingly. Many start on the roof instead of the sequential way over the stairs.



If we use the texts to analyse like in academical way, like our thinking mind automatically is used to do... its reaction to understand it in such way, then the meaning is hidden through that. Then this is like trying to understand the dept of the sea by analysing/fixating the movement of waves. ( void and appaerance separate)It is a habit which is so strong and when we approach words in that way, i don't think it can 'lead me' like you say.

Tashi delek,

Text can be only read by the intellect but reflected later in the practice (interdependency). When in Dzogchen terms understanding are the waves not separate from the depth of the sea (one flavour). Dualisms are not inside Dzogchen experience, but some non-Dzogchenpas have herewith problems in their approaching Dzogchen by an individual practice, but this experience does not count as the Dzogchen experience.


I don't think something is wrong with the Tibetan Dzogchen and the genuine masters "nonaction"-transmission at all, nature cannot be wrong. Not the teaching is the problem, it has directly transmission, but mind its habits are so strong, enslaved in analysing thoughts. These are keeping us busy, to scratch with a stick in the earth to 'seek' the sky.


Tashi delek,
For misunderstandings to correct, is this forum a good case. But on the other hand can the discovering of the own Nature, at best be guided by a Dzogchen Rigdzin because of the lineage and its "power". To be a Dzogchenpa is to be inside the lineage and there are some who dwell outside, single , autocratic without any support.

If these persons try to know more about Dzogchen here and would never join the Dzogchen Lineage, then they would have certainly a problem and that is what i am feeling here. So that is why there arise misunderstandings about what is Dzogchen .The way Master Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is explaining, that seems so the way how Dzogchen could be understood
here aboard. Here i must say that each Dzogchen Master is mostly explaining about his/her way of practice and Lineage.
Some of them explain the text according their experience, also remarkable.

Some explain Rigpa in that way others in that way. Some examples are egoless mind and Rigpa etc. So finally is there no one way in approaching Dzogchen, therefore also here the many misunderstandings about the same thing.

Mutsog Marro
KY




Maybe, it is more like a Chinese master said: surrender.

Apologize to say, no need to not respect anyone here or any method (!), but no master = no Dzogchen.

:namaste:


Very wise words, indeed! :namaste:


More words of wisdom. :thumbsup:
Thank you, kalden yungdrung! :namaste:
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~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Jax » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:46 pm

As Norbu has said many times: "Dzogchen is not a lineage or a tradition, Dzogchen is your true condition". Let's not doubt Norbu Rinpoche's wisdom regarding this. The ego-mind will create many mental objects to cling to that delay one's looking into one's own true condition. The last thing the ego wants to see is it's own non-existence. So it fills it's inner world with all kinds of exotic ornaments to cling to. Ultimately we come to realize that the only true Guru Yoga is to recognize our own Rigpa to be the supreme Guru or Kunje Gyalpo. The only purpose of the outer Guru is to bring this realization to fruition. So instead of focusing on ego-driven arguments regarding samsaric divisiveness, wouldn't it be better to follow the Guru's advices to focus on one's own True Condition that is the always naked and pure "eye" you are seeing from?
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Mr. G » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Topic re-opened.

Let's all focus and stay on topic.

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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:05 pm

Jax wrote:As Norbu has said many times: "Dzogchen is not a lineage or a tradition, Dzogchen is your true condition". Let's not doubt Norbu Rinpoche's wisdom regarding this.

Tashi delek,

Maybe don't i understand that Dzogchen would be not a lineage or a tradition, Dzogchen is your true condition.

Dzogchen Lineages go mostly back to Kuntu Zangpo / Samantabhadra and are given by the Dzogchen Rigdzins.
So no lineage no Dzogchen Teachings that seems to be "logic". Sure to recognize the Nature that is the core of all Dzogchen Teachinsg and resulted practice, but nevertheless without lineage no teachings.

Maybe better would be we are Dzogchenpas but not Dzogchen.


The ego-mind will create many mental objects to cling to that delay one's looking into one's own true condition. The last thing the ego wants to see is it's own non-existence. So it fills it's inner world with all kinds of exotic ornaments to cling to. Ultimately we come to realize that the only true Guru Yoga is to recognize our own Rigpa to be the supreme Guru or Kunje Gyalpo.

I did learn that Guru Yoga would be based on the Master of the Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings, who is venerated therefore. That would result in progress etc. By the outer Guru one can reach the Inner Guru (Yeshe) ?

The only purpose of the outer Guru is to bring this realization to fruition.
The outer Guru can show one, ones individual way of approaching Dzogchen, not your meant " This realisation".
But mostly he is Dzogchenpa and not Dzogchen......

Mutsog Marro
KY




So instead of focusing on ego-driven arguments regarding samsaric divisiveness, wouldn't it be better to follow the Guru's advices to focus on one's own True Condition that is the always naked and pure "eye" you are seeing from?
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Dronma » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:07 pm

Jax wrote:As Norbu has said many times: "Dzogchen is not a lineage or a tradition, Dzogchen is your true condition". Let's not doubt Norbu Rinpoche's wisdom regarding this. The ego-mind will create many mental objects to cling to that delay one's looking into one's own true condition. The last thing the ego wants to see is it's own non-existence.


Non-existence = nihilism which is wrong view, as much as existence = eternalism which is also wrong view. Then snipping and snapping a few words of a Master and use them in a way that serves our own personal understanding is not good. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says many things which cannot be separated the one from the other without loosing the true meaning of his teaching.


Jax wrote:So it fills it's inner world with all kinds of exotic ornaments to cling to. Ultimately we come to realize that the only true Guru Yoga is to recognize our own Rigpa to be the supreme Guru or Kunje Gyalpo. The only purpose of the outer Guru is to bring this realization to fruition. So instead of focusing on ego-driven arguments regarding samsaric divisiveness, wouldn't it be better to follow the Guru's advices to focus on one's own True Condition that is the always naked and pure "eye" you are seeing from?


First of all, I never heard any teacher of Vajrayana (including Dzogchen) to renounce the manifestation of ornaments!
In fact, we are able to discuss only about those ornaments (beautiful or ugly).
Of course, the realization will come by experiencing our Guru's advices, but this is something that it cannot be discussed and analyzed in any way and nowhere!
Last edited by Dronma on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby muni » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:10 pm

The suspiciousness and disrespect to the teachings, indirectly arrogance to honest Dharma brothers and sisters and so their precious masters, also our fellows who follow the teaching of Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche La is unavoidable when students mingle here to talk about on a forum.

When we cannot help, at least don't harm.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:17 pm

Let's not doubt Norbu Rinpoche's wisdom regarding this. The ego-mind will create many mental objects to cling to that delay one's looking into one's own true condition. The last thing the ego wants to see is it's own non-existence. So it fills it's inner world with all kinds of exotic ornaments to cling to.


Thanks for this. I understand better something. Especially the part about 'ornaments to cling to'. Something CHNNR was recently telling me.

Thanks again.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:48 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Dzogchen Lineages go mostly back to Kuntu Zangpo / Samantabhadra and are given by the Dzogchen Rigdzins.
So no lineage no Dzogchen Teachings that seems to be "logic". Sure to recognize the Nature that is the core of all Dzogchen Teachinsg and resulted practice, but nevertheless without lineage no teachings.

Maybe better would be we are Dzogchenpas but not Dzogchen.[/color]



Except that Samanthabhadra is not someone that originated a lineage, it's a vivid origin without any time concept ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: No-self and Rigpa

Postby Sally Gross » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:10 pm

Dronma wrote:
Jax wrote:As Norbu has said many times: "Dzogchen is not a lineage or a tradition, Dzogchen is your true condition". Let's not doubt Norbu Rinpoche's wisdom regarding this. The ego-mind will create many mental objects to cling to that delay one's looking into one's own true condition. The last thing the ego wants to see is it's own non-existence.


Non-existence = nihilism which is wrong view, as much as existence = eternalism which is also wrong view. Then snipping and snapping a few words of a Master and use them in a way that serves our own personal understanding is not good. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says many things which cannot be separated the one from the other without loosing the true meaning of his teaching.


Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between ego (self, atta/atman) and consciousness, which is not-self (anatta/anatman) ... :thinking: .... Denial of the existence of ego in ultimate terms (paramattha in Pali, paramartha in Sanskrit) is certainly not annihilationism, any more than using the first-person singular pronoun (the dreaded "I") in conventional terms (sammuti in Pali, sa.mvrti in Sanskrit) is ipso facto eternalism. The Ananda Sutta in the Pali canon is perhaps relevant here. (See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html).

I hope that this makes sense.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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