Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

[gregkavarnos]

Really? Are the Greeks using a new flag?

What are you talking about???
This is the Greek national flag.

Flag of Greece.png (747 Bytes) Viewed 891 times

I has NOTHING to do with the Germans.

[kirtu]

Really? Are the Greeks using a new flag?

What are you talking about???
This is the Greek national flag.

The attachment Flag of Greece.png is no longer available

I has NOTHING to do with the Germans.

Greg, the blue-white colors of the Greek flag come directly from the Bavarian flag. This was brought to Greece when Otto of Wittelsbach, Prince of Bavaria, was chosen to be King of Greece in 1832.

bavarian_flag.jpg (7.94 KiB) Viewed 883 times

At least that's what everyone in Bavaria knows - except it appears that a version of a Greek blue and white flag appears in Greece in 1822 ... hmmmm - really go to Bavaria and everyone will state categorically that the Greek flag comes from the Bavarian flag ....

Kirt

[gregkavarnos]

Revisionist nonsense. The colours were officially in effect in 1822, when Greece was declared a republic. That's 10 years before Otto of Wittelsbach, Prince of Bavaria, was imposed as King of Greece in 1832 (the European gentry didn't want no nasty burgeoise revolutionaries running a newly formed European state). Otto of Wittelsbach added a crown into the centre of the cross on the existing flag to make it "his".

It has been suggested by some Greek historians that the current flag derived from an older design, the virtually identical flag of the powerful Cretan Kallergis family. This flag was based on their coat of arms, whose pattern is supposed to be derived from the standards of their claimed ancestor, Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas (963–969 AD). This pattern (according to not easily verifiable descriptions) included nine stripes of alternating blue and white, as well as a cross, assumed to be placed on the upper left.

As for the blue and white, there are lots national flags out there using a blue and white colour combination: Argentina, El Salvador, Guatemala, Finland, Honduras, Israel, Federated States of Micronesia, Nicaragua, Somalia, San Marino. Are they all based on the Bavarian flag too?

[catmoon]

Oh well spoken. And while we are being all Grecophilic, perhaps I should throw in a plug for traditional Greek dress....




Nothing Bavarian about THAT. And no, these guys are not the Smothers Brothers. The photo dates from the 30's.

Hmmm, now that I think about it, the one on the left does bear a certain resemblance to a certain noted Bavarian.

And no, I have no idea what they have on their feet or how they walk in them.

[Nighthawk]

Sexy

[gregkavarnos]

Oh well spoken. And while we are being all Grecophilic, perhaps I should throw in a plug for traditional Greek dress....
...
Nothing Bavarian about THAT. And no, these guys are not the Smothers Brothers. The photo dates from the 30's.

Hmmm, now that I think about it, the one on the left does bear a certain resemblance to a certain noted Bavarian.

And no, I have no idea what they have on their feet or how they walk in them.

Actually it was guys like these that supported the 1936 military dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas (who supported the Bavarian Monarchy of Constantinos I ) sided with the Nazis during WWII (supporting Nazi activities in Greece against the Greek Nationalist and Communist resistance movements) and after the end of the Nazi occupation, were armed by the British in order to fight the continuing Communist resistance. Guys like this also helped with the reimposition of the monarchy and supported the 1967 (nationalist) military dictatorship.

That's why the one on the left bears a resemblance to a certain noted Bavarian. Actually their original uniforms were Bavarian, they later adpoted the style of the Greek anti-Ottoman mountain bandits.

PS This is only one aspect of Greek national dress, characteristically the mountainous regions of northern Greece. Where I live the traditional outfits for men are these:

Lesbos traditional outfits.jpg (144.15 KiB) Viewed 805 times

[Blue Garuda]

Lesbos traditional dress for men?

There are men on Lesbos?

Darn - off to cancel my travel plans immediately!

Patagonia looks nice this time of year - what's a 'gonia' and how do I pat one?


I guess national pride is something we all grow up with, but I can't say I have any attachment to my country as an entity (nor the flag or dress). I mean, I'm half English, a quarter Welsh, a quarter Austrian, a quarter Irish and a quarter Italian - I can't be attached to a bunch of countries that all hate each other, and even the English hate the English. And of course, Wales isn't even a country, but they still hate the English. And as for patron saints, flags and national dress.................................

[gregkavarnos]

I am not a Nationalist, the guys above with the funny moustaches and the skirts are, I am not. Isn't funny how Greek Nationalsists always side with the Germans though? That's another story. BUT I also believe there is nothing wrong with supporting and cultivating local customs, habits and knowledge. This is not nationalistic because (in the case of Greece for example) the regional differences between local Greek cultures are actually much more marked than the similarities.

I do not believe that imposing mass culture at the cost of local habits is a positive trait. Unity via diversity not homogenisation. Why should everything be reduced to McDonalds, blue, jeans and the latest version of Lady Gaga?

Is there something wrong with being proud of the positive traits of ones culture? Not really. But this idea of national pride without respect for local diversity is definitely problematic. This is where it all goes hideously (and murderously) wrong.

[Blue Garuda]

I am not a Nationalist, the guys above with the funny moustaches and the skirts are, I am not. Isn't funny how Greek Nationalsists always side with the Germans though? That's another story. BUT I also believe there is nothing wrong with supporting and cultivating local customs, habits and knowledge. This is not nationalistic because (in the case of Greece for example) the regional differences between local Greek cultures are actually much more marked than the similarities.

I do not believe that imposing mass culture at the cost of local habits is a positive trait. Unity via diversity not homogenisation. Why should everything be reduced to McDonalds, blue, jeans and the latest version of Lady Gaga?

Is there something wrong with being proud of the positive traits of ones culture? Not really. But this idea of national pride without respect for local diversity is definitely problematic. This is where it all goes hideously (and murderously) wrong.

There is constant pressure from national politicians to act as if there is an 'us' and a 'them' . This is most definitely not what Buddhism is about, of course.

I've lived long enough to see how easily intelligent people are manipulated - the Falklands War, for example. I saw great anger and nationalistic 'Nuke the Argies' nonsense arising, with huge pleasure as 'enemy' ships were sunk etc. I also saw a friend return from the battle with a wrecked mind caused by shooting children who the Argentinians had sent to shoot him. 'Groupthink' doesn't describe it, as there was no thinking. It was 'Group-madness', seemingly so easy to produce and direct, even in 'cool Britannia'.

This is just a tiny nudge further than a football crowd's anger or euphoria as some guy from Spain kicks a ball at a net guarded by a guy from Italy in the name of two rival English cities. Or as a fat dad at the touchline of my local rugby club bellowed at his son's team: 'Attack!! We're really dangerous when we attack! Kill them!'. Fortunately the kids looked at him as though he was a raving nutter - a sad fat man living his sporting dream vicariously through his son, who was suitably embarrassed. It doesn't take many like that dad to start wars they want to fight by sending other poor devils to die for them.

Europe will always be a powder-keg as long as politicians have a nationalist or separatist agenda and an electorate willing and able to be manipulated. In the UK we have Northern Ireland which is still simmering IMHO, Scottish bids for autonomy, etc. Cultural differences are enriching and inevitable - across the globe we live in different climates with different geography and the diversity of ways humans deal with survival. 'Us' and 'them' mentality begins with 'you' and 'me' - if that difference can lead to anger between two people then what hope for the mob mentality. Well, the hope comes in the form of people who can help change the minds of those who see the world in terms of 'self' and 'other', and show them it need not be a cause for anger and attachment. One such lady in Burma is doing just that.

[catmoon]

How to break groupthink:


This lesson was learned during the Bay of Pigs fiasco, in which the Kennedy administration convinced itself it could successfully invade Cuba using expatriate Cubans to deflect responsibility for the invasion. The invading force was basically thrown into a meat grinder.

After the annihilation of the invasion forces, Kennedy was alarmed that he and his cabinet could make such a poor decision, and he put considerable effort into finding the causes. It turns out that when making group decisions, it is essential to have people in the decision-making group who have differing viewpoints, and it must be insured that their opinions are listened to and taken seriously.

Thus, a decision-making body in say, Theravada or Tibetan Buddhism, must contain people from outside the group. That means atheists, Muslims, Christians and so on. That way, proposals based on the delusions held in common by the dominant group have a chance of being challenged. Unfortunately there is a powerful tendency for cabinets, advisory committees and boards to be stacked with like-minded people, a sure recipe for disaster.

[pueraeternus]

I am not a Nationalist, the guys above with the funny moustaches and the skirts are, I am not. Isn't funny how Greek Nationalsists always side with the Germans though? That's another story.

It's interesting you mentioned this - I just read an article on this:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 11,00.html

Do you see a particular brand of National Socialism on the rise in Greece?

Groupthink is largely unavoidable, since humans are social beings, and most will naturally seek out those of like-mind. I think the question is whether the groupthink is a result of a consensus attained between individual minds, or the groupthink is the force that compels the individuals to think alike.

[gregkavarnos]

It's interesting you mentioned this - I just read an article on this:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 11,00.html

The article is somewhat overstated but the truth is that the centre of Athens has become somewhat of a ghetto for third world refugees, heroin addicts of all ethnic groups (ie including Greeks) and illegal sex workers from Africa (mainly Nigeria). It is also true that in some areas vigilante groups do the policing instead of regular police units. What we have to keep in mind is that this situation has been purposefully fostered by various interests in order to make real estate prices in the central business district of Athens plummet.

The people that own the slums are making a killing renting out rooms to groups of refugees for $15 per person per night. We are talking ten people plus to a room. Since it is the only type of dwelling a refugee without papers can rent, we can see why they are drawn into these areas and it becomes obvious whose fault it is that these areas have become a ghetto.

It also suits the police since they don't have to risk leaving the office to actually deal with crime in the area. I have seen police, in the paved section of road that divides the National Archeological Museum from the Athens Institute of Technology, stand ten feet away from heroin addicts and dealers swapping drugs for cash.

Do you see a particular brand of National Socialism on the rise in Greece?

National Socialism has been a big part of the Greek political scene since the war of independence from the Ottoman Empire in the late 1800's. The population swaps with the equally National Socialist Turkish state sealed this National Socialist dream in the 1930's by moving a huge proportion of the Muslim Turkish speaking population (except for some communities in Thrace) to Turkey and the Greeks (that had been living in the geographical region of Turkey since before the time of Homer) were kicked out of Turkey into Greece as refugees. There are a number of historical accounts of these tragedies, particularly the burning (catastrophe) of the Greek and Armenian section of Izmir (Smyrna). These events helped bolster a sense of Nationalism/Patriotism on both sides and created a need for a socialist approach to deal with the refugees. Let's not forget that National Socialism/Fascism was very fashionable at the time throughout Europe and even in America.

The "Golden Dawn" neo-nazis have been active in Greece since the 1980's. They have many supporters inside the police force and have even acted as irregular support units to the police to help put down left wing demonstrations (there is ample video and photographic material to support this claim). We are talking about evidence for activities during the last 2-3 years. Many time police units use Golden dawn members as provocateurs at peaceful rallies in order to justify the use of police violence (again ample evidence exists to support this claim, even pictures and footage of provocatuers being transported by police vehicles and being armed with police equipment).

A majority of the official anti-refugee activity by the police being carried out right now is just populist posing by the two major Greek parties in order to gain support for the upcoming elections. I mean, the two major parties political ineptitude caused the problem, now they are going to fix it by flooding the street with police and roughing up a few pennniless an destitute refugees? The anti-refugee activity may subside after the elections (how will they continue to finance it?) but the sentiment will unfortunately been imprinted on the general population. This is the major problem.

But really it's just the same old "divide and conquer" bs. I mean refugees (and so-called illegal immigrants) built the majority of the building structures for the Olympic games, did all the agricultural work, worked in all the industrial sectors doing the most menial work, etc... Now, when the pieces of the pie have been handed out and eaten (and we even borrowed cash to buy another pie and ate that too), well now "we" don't want them in Greece. Now they are to blame for Greece's problems.

[pueraeternus]

Greg,

Thanks for the sobering reply. It seems a large portion of the woes of Greece stems from a corrupt and incompetent political structure. It seems National Socialistic sentiments does not naturally lead to a national unity towards lifting the country out of the underlying structural problems, which is probably exacerbated by the populace's distrust of the political parties?

As an outsider, I must admit I don't know what to think about the news reports on the constant protests and strikes by unions and anarchists (strange bedfellows) against the government on the austerity measures imposed by the EU. It is known that there are several infrastructure problems within the country, the key among them are the lack of an efficient tax-collection system in the country, distrust of political parties due to macro-economic mismanagement. So do most Greeks see that a lot of the problems derive from within, or the thinking (the "groupthink") is that problems mostly come from without (for example, unfair treatment by the EU/Germany)?

[deepbluehum]

Unleash yourself. Of course, be cool. This is America. Be cool, man.

"Cool" is the quintessential American style of groupthink.

Kirt

It has turned into that. But I'm talking about old school cool. When it meant something. Being original. Iconoclastic. Relaxed and bad ass at the same time.

You know it's pretty normal to slam what people are trying to express. But it ain't cool.

[kirtu]

Unleash yourself. Of course, be cool. This is America. Be cool, man.

"Cool" is the quintessential American style of groupthink.

Kirt

It has turned into that. But I'm talking about old school cool. When it meant something. Being original. Iconoclastic. Relaxed and bad ass at the same time.

You know it's pretty normal to slam what people are trying to express. But it ain't cool.

I wasn't slamming anyone. I am over American BS. The society is a complete failure and they still think they are the saviors of the world. WW 2 was long ago. Now America is responsible for the 2nd Great Depression (as they were for the 1st Great Depression) and collectively just shrug it off.

The US is a nation of groupthink. That's just a fact.

Kirt

[tobes]

I also found Greg's insights on Greece really interesting.

I suppose the question for me is: if there are such tangible injustices - particularly with respect to the way that migrant labour has been treated (but also, ordinary Greek workers) - surely the best political response is collective action.

To take this back to DeepBlueHum's point: I would say, that the greatest moments in America have occurred when people stood together, and fought - non-violently - for what is just. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement is a great example.

Being an iconoclast who is genuinely cool enough to stand alone and original - how impoverished and self-indulgent compared with the man or woman who turns towards the people, and acts with them and for them.

[deepbluehum]

I wasn't slamming anyone.

The society is a complete failure

Grouphate.

I sense much anger in you.

America has tremendous merit. Don't hate. Appreciate.

Don't crush us. Hug us. Love.

[deepbluehum]

I also found Greg's insights on Greece really interesting.

I suppose the question for me is: if there are such tangible injustices - particularly with respect to the way that migrant labour has been treated (but also, ordinary Greek workers) - surely the best political response is collective action.

To take this back to DeepBlueHum's point: I would say, that the greatest moments in America have occurred when people stood together, and fought - non-violently - for what is just. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement is a great example.

Being an iconoclast who is genuinely cool enough to stand alone and original - how impoverished and self-indulgent compared with the man or woman who turns towards the people, and acts with them and for them.

Definitely MLK is great. The civil disobedience movement started with Thoreau, an American iconoclast (who influenced Gandhi greatly, who influenced MLK). The greatest moments in America happened in the mind of someone who decided to buck Groupthink. It starts a wave. Standing together and all that is more Groupthink. Look at the guy standing next to you and do what he does. Look, you're standing together.

[tobes]

I also found Greg's insights on Greece really interesting.

I suppose the question for me is: if there are such tangible injustices - particularly with respect to the way that migrant labour has been treated (but also, ordinary Greek workers) - surely the best political response is collective action.

To take this back to DeepBlueHum's point: I would say, that the greatest moments in America have occurred when people stood together, and fought - non-violently - for what is just. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement is a great example.

Being an iconoclast who is genuinely cool enough to stand alone and original - how impoverished and self-indulgent compared with the man or woman who turns towards the people, and acts with them and for them.

Definitely MLK is great. The civil disobedience movement started with Thoreau, an American iconoclast (who influenced Gandhi greatly, who influenced MLK). The greatest moments in America happened in the mind of someone who decided to buck Groupthink. It starts a wave. Standing together and all that is more Groupthink. Look at the guy standing next to you and do what he does. Look, you're standing together.

I sort of see where you're coming from - I agree that there is and should be room for the brave thinker. But my point is that even the bravest thinker never stands alone, and nor does his/her thought. Thoreau the iconoclast, by definition, stands in a dialectic with what he is rejecting: his position only makes sense with reference to what he is defining himself against. And I think, that better than the dialectical inconoclast - who in a contrarian spirit wants to stand alone - is the dialogical empathiser - who naturally resonates with the minds of others.

[catmoon]

Isn't defining things in terms of their opposites kind of anti-buddhist?