Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Tom » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Tom wrote:Yes, Tsongkhapa certainly has his critics!
This does not explain what is your position. You can take a quote and check yourself. For example, Tsongkhapa's Final Exposition of Wisdom" (By Jeffrey Hopkins; Snow Lion Publications; Ithaca, New York; 2008; p.160) quotes: I have proven in many ways that conceptuality apprehending true existence is just one class of conceptuality. So this hypothetical "real existence" is really "just one", so somehow universal no matter what phenomenon. Is it not? If so, the implication is: it has to be diffrent no matter what phenomenon, in other words totally different from the world.


Mariusz,

I was not putting forward my position. Simply giving some context to the quote supplied by Khensur Lobsang Tharchin.

Cheers.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:17 am

Sherab wrote:We should also be clear that just because buddha nature pervades sentient beings does not mean that practices can be cast aside or are useless. Such a conclusion would imply a wrong understanding of what reality is and how obscurations arise.
It is the potential to become a buddha for every sentient being. So it is only reference point related to every sentient being for the Path to become a buddha. If there is no more the sentient being itself finally, there is no more such reference point needed. In other words, if the is the perfect buddhahood (3 Kayas), there is the beyond all reference points, the beyond all limitations. Sentient beings need suitable useful practice of skillful means and wisdom to be finally beyond all limitation, for example to have 64 main features of Buddhahood:
-of all-penetrating knowledge (10 powers of perfect enlightenment)
-of never doubtful activity (4 types of fearlessness)
-of all-pervading perfect activity (18 distinctive qualities of Buddhahood)
-of 32 physical marks of the Perfect One
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Totoro » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:32 am

What I understood from a Gelugpa teacher is that we all have Buddha nature i.e. the potential to become Buddhas. The reason we are not Buddhas at the moment is due to the two obscurations or obstructions - delusion obstruction and obstruction to knowing. The first level of delusion we can remove by meditation on emptiness as per Sutra path. The obstruction to knowing we can only remove by meditating using the very subtle mind via completion stage meditation. I hope I got that right. So I'm not sure where growing buddhahood like a seed comes in.

Not wanting to complicate things further, where does the Kagyu Mahamudra fit in all of this?

And clearly I don't understand the Nyingma view since I haven't received any teachings on Dzogchen yet but thanks for all the replies thus far.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:38 am

Totoro wrote:What I understood from a Gelugpa teacher is that we all have Buddha nature i.e. the potential to become Buddhas. The reason we are not Buddhas at the moment is due to the two obscurations or obstructions - delusion obstruction and obstruction to knowing. The first level of delusion we can remove by meditation on emptiness as per Sutra path. The obstruction to knowing we can only remove by meditating using the very subtle mind via completion stage meditation. I hope I got that right. So I'm not sure where growing buddhahood like a seed comes in.

Not wanting to complicate things further, where does the Kagyu Mahamudra fit in all of this?

And clearly I don't understand the Nyingma view since I haven't received any teachings on Dzogchen yet but thanks for all the replies thus far.

We are writing here how to investigate Madhyamaka and Yogacara. So it is sutra only. Whatever your Vajrayana lineage/tradition is, Gelug or non-Gelug, so far as genuine Madhyamaka is concerned, it is crucial to not take it for granted, but investigate. Here in the end you have to rely on your investigation only.

In your case, it seems you are mixing 2 different methods sutra and tantra together. Both methods are suitable to remove all delussions and obstructions to knowing. In sutra it takes time of 3 countless eons during bodhisattva/s rebirths, in highest yoga tantra even one lifetime:
-path of accumulation
stage of generation
-path of preparation
physical isolation, verbal isolation, mental isolation, impure Illusory Body
-path of seeing
actual clear light
-path of meditation
learner's union
-path of no more learning
non-learner's union

However, it is written in some tantras and its commentaries, no matter in what Tibetan Vajrayana tradition, finally after 3 countless eons of sutra's practice in the last bodhisattva's rebirth, bodhisattva has to use tantra method to remove the subtlest obstruction to knowing. Please ask perhaps Namdrol for more details.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Totoro » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:38 pm

We are writing here how to investigate Madhyamaka and Yogacara. So it is sutra only. Whatever your Vajrayana lineage/tradition is, Gelug or non-Gelug, so far as genuine Madhyamaka is concerned, it is crucial to not take it for granted, but investigate. Here in the end you have to rely on your investigation only.

In your case, it seems you are mixing 2 different methods sutra and tantra together.


I am not talking about MAdhyamaka or Yogacara, but am referring to the original topic of the question I asked.

I am not mixing anything together. Isn't this what I said albeit in another way?:
However, it is written in some tantras and its commentaries, no matter in what Tibetan Vajrayana tradition, finally after 3 countless eons of sutra's practice in the last bodhisattva's rebirth, bodhisattva has to use tantra method to remove the subtlest obstruction to knowing.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:42 pm

Totoro wrote: Isn't this what I said albeit in another way?:
However, it is written in some tantras and its commentaries, no matter in what Tibetan Vajrayana tradition, finally after 3 countless eons of sutra's practice in the last bodhisattva's rebirth, bodhisattva has to use tantra method to remove the subtlest obstruction to knowing.
If you are such bodhisattva, of course it is this way for you:) Another way is for example what was in original India where the progressive meditations on emptiness used to be standard preparations to start such practices as Mahamudra. Not only original Madhyamaka of Nagarjuna and Aryadeva, but also system of Yogacara on Buddha Nature of Asanga and Vasubandhu.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Tom » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:35 pm

Totoro wrote:What I understood from a Gelugpa teacher is that we all have Buddha nature i.e. the potential to become Buddhas. The reason we are not Buddhas at the moment is due to the two obscurations or obstructions - delusion obstruction and obstruction to knowing. The first level of delusion we can remove by meditation on emptiness as per Sutra path. The obstruction to knowing we can only remove by meditating using the very subtle mind via completion stage meditation. I hope I got that right. So I'm not sure where growing buddhahood like a seed comes in.

Not wanting to complicate things further, where does the Kagyu Mahamudra fit in all of this?

And clearly I don't understand the Nyingma view since I haven't received any teachings on Dzogchen yet but thanks for all the replies thus far.


Most of the above is fairly accurate. But it might help to clarify the Gelug perspective a little more for better comparison.

For Gelugpas there are two types of objects to be negated those by the path and those by reasoning. Here we are talking about objects negated by the path. Of which there are two: 1) Afflictive obscurations meaning the grasping to self of person and phenomena as well as afflictions. 2) Cognitive obscurations the latencies of the grasping to a self of person and phenomena (and the dualistic appearance they bring about). The afflictive obstacles mainly prevent us from attaining liberation and the cognitive obscurations mainly prevent us from omniscience. Reasoning alone does not eliminate these obscurations and so one has to cultivate the paths and eliminate them through meditation. From the Sutra vehicle perspective meditation on emptiness conjoined with Bodhichita and supported by an infinite collection of merit will overcome these two obscurations. The abandonment of the afflictive obstacles occurs with the attainment of the eight ground, and the abandonment of the obscurations of knowledge occurs simultaneously with the actualization of the four bodies. However, from the Tantric vehicle perspective in order to attain Buddhahood one must also remove the subtle obstacles that are latent dualisms (the minds of white/red/black) and for this the completion stage yogas are required.

This is from the Gelugpa perspective and there are many differences with the other schools such as the two obstacles not being based upon two different grasping to self etc. However as mentioned above Gelugpas do not accept the conception of true existence as a obscuration to knowledge.

In terms of Buddhanature for Gelugpas it is a bit complex but generally we can say Buddha nature is the emptiness of the mind itself which is permanent and beginingless. This is considered a natural potential. It is not the capacity of the mind to be separated from obscurations, and it is also not the clear and luminous nature of the mind. Through listening, thinking and meditation then there is the developed potential.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:46 pm

Tom wrote:From the Sutra vehicle perspective meditation on emptiness conjoined with Bodhichita and supported by an infinite collection of merit will overcome these two obscurations. The abandonment of the afflictive obstacles occurs with the attainment of the eight ground, and the abandonment of the obscurations of knowledge occurs simultaneously with the actualization of the four bodies. However, from the Tantric vehicle perspective in order to attain Buddhahood one must also remove the subtle obstacles that are latent dualisms (the minds of white/red/black) and for this the completion stage yogas are required
Sure, this Tantric vehicle perspective with (1) white appearance, (2) red increase, (3) black near-attainment is for the Process of dissolution of humans using HYT, but really I'm not sure if it is for these maha-bodhisattvas during the end of their final rebirth after countless eons, since these maha-bodhisattvas have no longer human bodies - I quess they need only to enter (4) clear light directly according to tantras? So for HYT is not neccessary to use sutra methods at all, and for sutra is not neccessary to use those methods for human bodies of HYT. Considering it for me there is not neccessary any mixing of the both.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Tom » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:00 am

Mariusz wrote: So for HYT is not neccessary to use sutra methods at all


As you said yourself, "If you are such bodhisattva, of course it is this way for you:)" - Obviously from his writings it appears Tsongkhapa thought otherwise :-)!
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:31 am

Tom wrote:
Mariusz wrote: So for HYT is not neccessary to use sutra methods at all


As you said yourself, "If you are such bodhisattva, of course it is this way for you:)" - Obviously from his writings it appears Tsongkhapa thought otherwise :-)!
You are right. There can be the exception. Without the practice of Mahayana in previous lifetimes it is not possible to enter HYT in present lifetime as a human? But when one finally enters HYT as a human the HYT methods are sufficient alone, are they not?
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:18 pm

Tom wrote:Obviously from his writings it appears Tsongkhapa thought otherwise :-)!
It is not so obvious. Here you have a quote on the analysis (sutra methods) which is not performed during HYTantra:

(Tsongkhapa's Final Exposition of Wisdom; page.158) Our own system is as follows: Even in the context of Highest Yoga [Mantra] the system (Vajrayana) of generating understanding of the view must be done in accordance with what occurs in the Middle Way texts. With respect to how it is sustained, on some occasions during states subsequent to meditative equipoise on the stages of generation and completion,
one takes suchness to mind within analyzing it, but when those on the stage of completion who have attained the capacity to put penetrative focus on essential points in the body sustain suchness in meditative
equipoise, although they definitely must meditate within setting [the mind] in the context of the view, they do not perform the analytical meditation of special insight as it occurs in other texts. Therefore, with respect to that occasion, do not posit analytical meditation as one-pointed meditation on suchness from within the context of the view ancillary to stabilizing [meditation].
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:29 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Tom wrote:Obviously from his writings it appears Tsongkhapa thought otherwise :-)!
It is not so obvious. Here you have a quote on the analysis (sutra methods) which is not performed during HYTantra:

(Tsongkhapa's Final Exposition of Wisdom; page.158) Our own system is as follows: Even in the context of Highest Yoga [Mantra] the system (Vajrayana) of generating understanding of the view must be done in accordance with what occurs in the Middle Way texts. With respect to how it is sustained, on some occasions during states subsequent to meditative equipoise on the stages of generation and completion,
one takes suchness to mind within analyzing it, but when those on the stage of completion who have attained the capacity to put penetrative focus on essential points in the body sustain suchness in meditative
equipoise, although they definitely must meditate within setting [the mind] in the context of the view, they do not perform the analytical meditation of special insight as it occurs in other texts. Therefore, with respect to that occasion, do not posit analytical meditation as one-pointed meditation on suchness from within the context of the view ancillary to stabilizing [meditation].



Well, what Tsongkhapa is saying here is that first you generate the view in accordance with Madhyamaka texts. Then, outside of the context of creation and completion one still engages in Madhyamaka analysis.

However, advanced meditators in the completion stage have no further need to engage in such analysis and so they don't.

N
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:Well, what Tsongkhapa is saying here is that first you generate the view in accordance with Madhyamaka texts. Then, outside of the context of creation and completion one still engages in Madhyamaka analysis.

However, advanced meditators in the completion stage have no further need to engage in such analysis and so they don't.

N
Yes. For me it is also. So in this case the HYT methods are sufficient alone without any need for the sutra adding even according to Tsongkhapa . No necessity for mixing the both.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:35 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Well, what Tsongkhapa is saying here is that first you generate the view in accordance with Madhyamaka texts. Then, outside of the context of creation and completion one still engages in Madhyamaka analysis.

However, advanced meditators in the completion stage have no further need to engage in such analysis and so they don't.

N
Yes. For me it is also. So in this case the HYT methods are sufficient alone without any need for the sutra adding even according to Tsongkhapa . No necessity for mixing the both.



Not for beginners. Only for advanced pracitioners.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:Not for beginners. Only for advanced pracitioners.
The ones who really enter HYT methods.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:46 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Not for beginners. Only for advanced pracitioners.
The ones who really enter HYT methods.


What Tsongkhapa is saying is that until one gains advanced proficiency in completion stage, one must rely on Madhyamaka analysis in tandem with the two stages. He is never saying that one may begin to engage [i.e. enter] in HYT practices without having done extensive analysis based on Madhyamaka texts.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Not for beginners. Only for advanced pracitioners.
The ones who really enter HYT methods.


What Tsongkhapa is saying is that until one gains advanced proficiency in completion stage, one must rely on Madhyamaka analysis in tandem with the two stages. He is never saying that one may begin to engage [i.e. enter] in HYT practices without having done extensive analysis based on Madhyamaka texts.
Yes. Let's forget Tsonghkapa. Is it possible to progress through:
-path of accumulation
stage of generation
-path of preparation
physical isolation, verbal isolation, mental isolation, impure Illusory Body
-path of seeing
actual clear light
-path of meditation
learner's union
-path of no more learning
non-learner's union
without necessity of sutra methods or not?
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:11 pm

Mariusz wrote:Is it possible to progress through...
without necessity of sutra methods or not?


From the point of view of Nyingma, Sakya and so on, definitely.
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Will » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Is it possible to progress through...
without necessity of sutra methods or not?


From the point of view of Nyingma, Sakya and so on, definitely.


N. - you mean that the sutric ethical, dialectical & meditative foundation are never used as a preliminary practice? Surely in every lifetime those basic methods & practices must be recapitulated by everyone? For the very advanced that revisiting of such basic practices may take only a few years (or less?), but all must have that foundation.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
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Re: Sugatagarbha : Gelugpa & Nyingma

Postby Mariusz » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Is it possible to progress through...
without necessity of sutra methods or not?


From the point of view of Nyingma, Sakya and so on, definitely.
Can you please write what tantras are saying it is necessery to enter tantra even by maha-bodhisattvas (according to sutra) in the end of their 9th level, and how they enter the clear light?
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