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the great rebirth debate - Page 63 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bodom
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:47 pm

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans."The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans."The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans. - Timsa Sutta SN 15.13
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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bodom
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:51 pm

Ok, im done. That should get the ball rolling for ya individual.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Sunrise
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Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:55 pm


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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:13 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Will
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby Will » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:17 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

Sanghamitta
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:01 pm

As I see it these threads always come down to a few positions with slight variations.

Those who accept the basic premise of punarbhava, and encourage others to examine the evidence.
Those who are unconvinced at present for what ever reason.
Those who simply decide to press on with practice and worry about punarbhava as and when.
Those who confuse punarbhava with reincarnation of an atta.

and.....those who predicate a Buddhism based on a belief system. Which they then use to draw a distinction between us and them.
Which latter group is no different to any other group of religious believers whose practice of their religion is largely about defending a belief. And excluding those who do not at present share that belief. I find this latter group causes me concern as someone who accpts punarbhava.
I find it hard not to assume that the latter group are largely attempting to convince themselves. They do protest too much. Or so it seems to me.
I suspect that were they easy in their own acceptance of punarbhava they would be less inclined to promote it as a shibboleth.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:15 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sanghamitta
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:21 pm

That makes no semantic or coherent sense Hanzze. So I cant answer.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:34 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sunrise
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:37 pm


Sanghamitta
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:42 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Hanzze
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Location: Cambodia

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:53 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:45 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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cooran
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:21 pm

Hello Individual,

There are a dozen or so references listed under the heading Rebirth at this link on Access To Insight:
Rebirth
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#rebirth

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:50 am, edited 7 times in total.

Sanghamitta
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Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:43 pm

There is much that could be said Lazy Eye. But to keep it simple and to the point, we do no favours when we urge others to practice with OUR underlying belief system or not at all. The Dhamma needs no guardian. Its practices will in time prove a better guardian than we with our mixed motives and need for certainty can ever be.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Aloka
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Aloka » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:50 pm


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Lazy_eye
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:14 pm

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:22 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:24 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Alex123
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:29 pm

In AN6.60 it says that even a monk who has reached 4th Jhana, and even signless concentration of mind, can be tempted by sensual desires and disrobe on account of that. That to me shows that the person didn't have enough lasting peace of mind to remain as a monk.

So even if one reaches 4 Jhanas, it is no guarantee of permanent contentment. And what are the chances of a lay householder reaching them? Only paths and fruits are certain to remove corresponding unwholesome mental states. But one is not going to get Awakened unless one drops the wrong view (there is no rebirth) and adopts a right view. It is also doubtful if someone who doesn't believe everything Buddha says, who doesn't believe in the full Dukkha of samsara, is going to strive hard enough to reach Awakening, which is very hard to reach.

There is much easier secular way for happiness, find the right anti-depressant, find the right chemistry, find happiness among little pleasures of life... Some sociopaths climb the corporate ladder and live in opulance... If they feel bad, they can afford lots of things that simply were not available in Buddha's time. And please don't talk about remorse or regret, some evil people don't have any regrets over people and animals that they step over. For them, other beings are commodity and one doesn't worry when that commodity is used for one's end... One can also much easier relax through chemical means than through Dhamma.


Of course, all of that would apply if there was only one life. If there was only one life then the path to Nibbana would be very easy, suicide!

So IMHO belief in rebirth is a must for gathering enough motivatation to practice and permanently eradicate unwholesome mental states.


With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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