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the great rebirth debate - Page 62 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:29 am


Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:32 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:43 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:44 am

Greetings,

Well, we could even quote from Tilt's signature...

"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond." (SN I, 38.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:50 am


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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:43 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Aloka
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Aloka » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:06 am

.

I hope this thread isn't going to descend into bullying at some point - and that we can respect each other's different views.

Having read the thread so far, nothing has persuaded me to change from my neutral position of not speculating about past and future and of practising Dhamma in the here and now, according to the most excellent and (to me) very relevant teachings of Ajahn Sumedho.

Can Buddhism exist for me without the doctine of reincarnation ? The answer is yes. Does that mean that some people won't consider me to be a "Buddhist"? Probably, but that's up to them, its just their views and opinions - and what's important to me is my own practice.

with metta to all,

Aloka :)

lojong1
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:34 am


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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:39 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:22 am


Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:49 pm


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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:20 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Individual
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


Individual
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Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:18 pm

What are the most important suttas in understanding rebirth?

(You can just mention suttas -- don't worry, I'm not here for a debate!)
The best things in life aren't things.


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bodom
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:32 pm

"Of course you are befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you are uncertain. When there is a reason for befuddlement in you, uncertainty arises. I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance. Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance, even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance.""But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?""Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time.""And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?""Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time." - Kutuhalasala Sutta SN 44.9
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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bodom
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Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:36 pm

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans."Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." - Assu Sutta SN 15.3
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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beeblebrox
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:36 pm

I think the pattern of rebirth is like a fractal... you can see this pattern down to just one life, down to the very last second. That is why some people seem to be able to see it for themselves (without having seen "their" own previous lives), "metaphorically".

It's an infinitely large, endless loop... even into the tiniest one life, or one nanosecond.

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bodom
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:38 pm

Which do you think is more: the streams of blood that, through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, these, or the waters of the four oceans? Long have you been caught as robbers, or highway men or adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans. But how is this possible? Inconceivable is the beginning of this Sa.msaara; not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths. - S. XV. 13
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 5713
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm

"He recollects his manifold past lives,[3] i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details. - Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta SN 51.20
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 5713
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:44 pm

a man, after the disappearance of the 3 mental chains personality-belief, skeptical doubt, attachment to rules and ritual; see: samyojana has entered the stream to Nibbāna, he is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment. After having passed amongst the divine and human beings only seven times more through the round of rebirths, he puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one with 7 births at the utmost' sattakkhattu-parama. - Pug. 37-39; A. III, 87:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/


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