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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Is there a list anywhere of what a Guru is responsible for doing once a student takes refuge with him? Any duties, or responsiblities, or samaya obligations for them to watch out for the student? or bear their karma? or just teach sometimes? or whatever they want? I've never seen a book called "How to be a Rinpoche" so I'm wondering where they learn the rules, if there are any, or if it's just play-it-by-ear? If I had to guess a lineage, I'd guess Drukpa Kagyu.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:30 pm 
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There are no samayas associated with refuge for teachers or students in any lineage.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:51 pm 
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I guess one of the key issues is how you examine a Guru to see if he/she will be suitable - before you enter the relationship.

In retrospect you can assess your former Guru against these qualities, and also maybe use them in choosing another:

http://viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html

I don't believe there is samaya with your former Guru but I believe the best way to deal with your departure is to cultivate compassion for him. I can't imagine that will be easy, though.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:05 pm 
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I can't even begin to imagine there's no samaya with a refuge guru. That utterly goes against all we've been taught. He is our root guru, only guru, Guru Rinpoche, everything. He is the only one we have Samaya with. I'm not saying you're lying. I just am utterly speachless. We constantly talk about samaya with our guru, like everyday.

The only "responsability" I ever had at an empowerment was that the lama insisted we each say 100.000 100syllable mantras once we got the Vajrasattva purification empowerment. Other than that, no talking to the lamas. I intend to keep that, as it would be easy to finish and that guru was nice to give me the empowerment.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:08 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
I can't even begin to imagine there's no samaya with a refuge guru. That utterly goes against all we've been taught. He is our root guru, only guru, Guru Rinpoche, everything. He is the only one we have Samaya with. I'm not saying you're lying. I just am utterly speachless. We constantly talk about samaya with our guru, like everyday.



You have been mislead.
Samaya is a Vajrayana thing, refuge is not.
You have no samaya whatsoever with this person. No higher tantra empowerment or direct introduction=no samaya.

He is not your root guru.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:16 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
I can't even begin to imagine there's no samaya with a refuge guru. That utterly goes against all we've been taught. He is our root guru, only guru, Guru Rinpoche, everything. He is the only one we have Samaya with. I'm not saying you're lying. I just am utterly speachless. We constantly talk about samaya with our guru, like everyday.

The only "responsability" I ever had at an empowerment was that the lama insisted we each say 100.000 100syllable mantras once we got the Vajrasattva purification empowerment. Other than that, no talking to the lamas. I intend to keep that, as it would be easy to finish and that guru was nice to give me the empowerment.


Just read and study about refuge and you will find out what it is and what it isn't. Don't trust us just use your own intelligence. All Buddhist take refuge, right? So do the Hinayana practitioners have samaya?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Any chance that if my guru "arranged" or "authorized" the empowerments that he would be counted in on the samaya part? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:49 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
Any chance that if my guru "arranged" or "authorized" the empowerments that he would be counted in on the samaya part? Thanks.

Nope.
You are in the clear. If this were the case we would have samaya with university boards etc. that organize empowerments with HHDL when he visits.
Someone who hosts or invites a teacher to perform an empowerment does not establish a teacher/student relationship with those who get the empowerment.
Anyone can request an empowerment and invite a teacher to give one.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:13 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
Any chance that if my guru "arranged" or "authorized" the empowerments that he would be counted in on the samaya part? Thanks.


No.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:08 pm 
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A guru is responsible for representing his lineage, and for fostering his students.

In order to be a "Guru" in the Vajrayana, in the Tibetan traditions, at least, you have to have permission from your guru to teach. This normally comes only after extended retreats and years of practice. Genuine gurus will, in the course of teaching, refer often to their teachers, and their lineage. You, as "guru," are a representative of the lineage stemming, first off, from your teacher.

Anyone who claims to be a "guru" without publically identifying their own teachers, their own affiliation, in the course of any transmission, should be questioned.

As for fostering students, there are many ways this responsibility is upheld. But the primary concern, for any true guru, is that the student enters into practice or relationship willingly, and openly. If there is any coercion, or any other force, exerted on the student, which is unwanted by the student, I would question the qualifications of that particular guru. It is true that, at a certain point, gurus may use harsh words, etc., and there may be more "secret" injunctions regarding given practices, etc., but these sorts of techniques are advanced and are used only once a bond is forged.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:19 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
Is there a list anywhere of what a Guru is responsible for doing once a student takes refuge with him? Any duties, or responsiblities, or samaya obligations for them to watch out for the student? or bear their karma? or just teach sometimes? or whatever they want? I've never seen a book called "How to be a Rinpoche" so I'm wondering where they learn the rules, if there are any, or if it's just play-it-by-ear? If I had to guess a lineage, I'd guess Drukpa Kagyu.


This is a classic about how a student-teacher relationship should function. It is nice and comprehensive. You will see that it's very different to the cult you've been unfortunately sucked into.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav ... 27811.html

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:26 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
I can't even begin to imagine there's no samaya with a refuge guru. That utterly goes against all we've been taught. He is our root guru, only guru, Guru Rinpoche, everything. He is the only one we have Samaya with. I'm not saying you're lying. I just am utterly speachless. We constantly talk about samaya with our guru, like everyday.

I agree with all that other people said here before me, and would like to add two points:
First of all, no one can teach you who is your root guru, that is your personal choice. And a good root guru will usually not make high claims about himself, but instead refer to the teachers he was lucky to have.
Second, if your sangha talks about samaya every day, something is seriously wrong. This is yet another indication of being in a cult (which doesn't make them all bad people, just completely mislead and clueless).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:30 pm 
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I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to understand "samaya" read Jamgon Kongtrul's "Buddhist Ethics."

http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_6746.html

Another reference:

http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_5844.html

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:54 am 
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What happened to the thread about "Leaving Vajrayana"? It seems to have vanished without trace or explanation. Am I looking in the wrong place? I don't even see my own little comments I made in that thread under "View my posts". Has it just been deleted? What's happening?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:16 am 
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Lingpupa wrote:
What happened to the thread about "Leaving Vajrayana"? It seems to have vanished without trace or explanation. Am I looking in the wrong place? I don't even see my own little comments I made in that thread under "View my posts". Has it just been deleted? What's happening?


Maybe send a PM to a Mod to find out.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:33 pm 
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It's under analysis for the protection of the OP. For the time being it's kept outside people's sight.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:43 pm 
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It seems one really only needs to read classic texts, Lam Rim texts,
if you will, to understand what are the normal qualities and of a teacher
and a student. There is nothing arbitrary about it. Just read, for example,
the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa. Very straightforward,
nothing esoteric at a Sutric level which is what one has if no empowerments
or pointing out instruction has been received by the teacher in question.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Check this one out too: Perfect Conduct - Ascertaining the Three Vows
http://www.scribd.com/doc/84942558/Nagr ... ct-Conduct
Should clear things up for you!

Here's a link to the Jamgon Kongtrul book as well:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/79584919/Jamg ... -Student-p
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:22 pm 
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DharmaConfused wrote:
Any chance that if my guru "arranged" or "authorized" the empowerments that he would be counted in on the samaya part? Thanks.



OK, I know it's deeply been ingrained into your belief that you have samaya with this person: and it is hard to fathom that it might not be true. But just know this: even if you have doubts about not having samaya, --you clearly have had many doubts about your situation which is what led you to leave, and to find this site. And at this point you should be having some doubts about whether you ever had any samaya, and weren't simply being manipulated.

Right?

SO this is a fact: --> for anyone that has authentic samaya in the Nyingma lineage you have three years to repair broken samaya before it is irreparable. All this requires is sincere remorse, confession, and 100 syllable mantra, etc.
So you see? Please don't panic and think that if your samaya is authentic then if you leave now you will automatically go to hell, etc. or whatever these sangha members tell you. You should leave, get space, reflect, study about Vajrayana with publicly respected and non-secretive masters of the Drikung or Nyingma lineages and then within three years you should know enough to decide if you have samaya you need to repair or if you never had it with this person in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
DharmaConfused wrote:
Any chance that if my guru "arranged" or "authorized" the empowerments that he would be counted in on the samaya part? Thanks.



OK, I know it's deeply been ingrained into your belief that you have samaya with this person: and it is hard to fathom that it might not be true. But just know this: even if you have doubts about not having samaya, --you clearly have had many doubts about your situation which is what led you to leave, and to find this site. And at this point you should be having some doubts about whether you ever had any samaya, and weren't simply being manipulated.

Right?

SO this is a fact: --> for anyone that has authentic samaya in the Nyingma lineage you have three years to repair broken samaya before it is irreparable. All this requires is sincere remorse, confession, and 100 syllable mantra, etc.
So you see? Please don't panic and think that if your samaya is authentic then if you leave now you will automatically go to hell, etc. or whatever these sangha members tell you. You should leave, get space, reflect, study about Vajrayana with publicly respected and non-secretive masters of the Drikung or Nyingma lineages and then within three years you should know enough to decide if you have samaya you need to repair or if you never had it with this person in the first place.


This is good advice. I received similar advice in similar ( but less painful) circumstances and members of this forum were instrumental in supporting me. :)

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