Vajra Hell

[Pero]

So I really doubt whatever anyone who doesn't respect his teachers says.

Of course. But I also would doubt what a teacher who does not respect his students says.

Good point.

[muni]

[
This is no guarantee that the teacher, once found, will be a good one, a qualified one. If that teacher does not measure up to Dharma standards, he or she should be dropped like a hot coal from one's hands.

No garantee, of course. And my coarse suspicious mind is no help.

[Jax]

Namdrol, what do think of Germano's research regarding sPyti being a reaction to the tantric elements being so broadly integrated into Dzogchen? What is the sPyti view of samaya?

[Malcolm]

Namdrol, what do think of Germano's research regarding sPyti being a reaction to the tantric elements being so broadly integrated into Dzogchen?

Highly speculative. The spyi ti texts were largely produced by Nyangral, one of the major promulgators of Nyingma tantric cycles in general.

[deepbluehum]

Okay. I have one question about samaya. What if the teacher falls into dualistic grasping in a such a way as to buy into a common run of the mill worldly point of view that the student thinks is petty?

The student should mind his own business.

What if the teacher exhibits greed?

[Malcolm]

Okay. I have one question about samaya. What if the teacher falls into dualistic grasping in a such a way as to buy into a common run of the mill worldly point of view that the student thinks is petty?

The student should mind his own business.

What if the teacher exhibits greed?

Greed may be a failing but it is not a cause for a Vajrayāna student to criticize their teacher.

[Sönam]

Greed may be a failing but it is not a cause for a Vajrayāna student to criticize their teacher.

That's why it's important to ponderate ... and not to excessively enter in a cycle of opinion, jugement and so on. Most of the discomfort could be resolved by spliting without necessarly providing a commentary. Of course if a guru is outrageously lying or abusing it should be reported ... but except for that, the best is only to quit.

Sönam

[Malcolm]

Greed may be a failing but it is not a cause for a Vajrayāna student to criticize their teacher.

That's why it's important to ponderate ... and not to excessively enter in a cycle of opinion, jugement and so on. Most of the discomfort could be resolved by spliting without necessarly providing a commentary. Of course if a guru is outrageously lying or abusing it should be reported ... but except for that, the best is only to quit.

Sönam

Correct.

[kirtu]

Greed may be a failing but it is not a cause for a Vajrayāna student to criticize their teacher.

That's why it's important to ponderate ... and not to excessively enter in a cycle of opinion, jugement and so on. Most of the discomfort could be resolved by spliting without necessarly providing a commentary. Of course if a guru is outrageously lying or abusing it should be reported ... but except for that, the best is only to quit.

Well look - I know a group of tulku worshippers (literally) who have gone off the rails. The tulku themselves has some issues and is not my cup of tea but they actually have done some very positive things and I'm certain mean well. However they have some issues to purify. But they group around this tulku appears to be manipulating the situation is a manner that results in emotionally and possibly spiritually toxic interactions. So I have begun to flat out tell people who ask that that is probably not the best place until they get their act together. Abuse has been alleged with this group but it's more that they are just missing a great deal and as a result are still pretty much a semi-faux New Age group - although some people from there actually do well. So it can be sketchy. Anyway, they are not my guru .....

So I think we can say that it's more than just outageously lying or abuse.

Kirt

[PadmaVonSamba]

If you are honest with your teacher, I think you should be up front with him (her). I am very fortunate to have the teachers that I have, and have had in the past, and while I have never found fault with them, I am generally pretty direct with any issues that concern me. I will get right up in the teacher's face sometimes, if it is really an issue I have trouble with. And if something smells like yak poop, I tell them it smells like yak poop.

It is deadly important to be honest with yourself, and with your teachers. I think honesty is the foundation of samaya. A good teacher respects honesty in a student. So often, a lama runs into a lot of people who are all full of smiles and prostrations and outwardly display a kind of ridiculously "obedient" face, but below the surface, there is nothing. Don't you think a good teacher can see through this charade? If anybody thinks they are going to upset their teacher by being honest with them, then they must think their teacher is pretty wobbly. Why would you study with a wobbly teacher?
Be honest, and laugh about it later.

Sometimes what appears to a student as something negative is based on the limited understanding of the student. I am reminded of the zen story about the monk who was a very talented artist and made money on the side by painting pictures on the silk kimonos of rich women, meeting with them behind closed doors and charging outrageous sums. He met with all kinds of scandalous criticism. But in fact, he was secretly raising money to build a temple, to feed people, and so forth. when his goals were accomplished, he threw his paint brushes away. So, you never know the whole story until you know the whole story.

It is often easier to be honest with others than it is to be honest with yourself.
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.
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[Malcolm]

Sometimes what appears to a student as something negative is based on the limited understanding of the student.

It is possible to slide a lot of bullshit under this rug.

[Dronma]

If you are honest with your teacher, I think you should be up front with him (her). I am very fortunate to have the teachers that I have, and have had in the past, and while I have never found fault with them, I am generally pretty direct with any issues that concern me. I will get right up in the teacher's face sometimes, if it is really an issue I have trouble with. And if something smells like yak poop, I tell them it smells like yak poop.

It is deadly important to be honest with yourself, and with your teachers. I think honesty is the foundation of samaya. A good teacher respects honesty in a student. So often, a lama runs into a lot of people who are all full of smiles and prostrations and outwardly display a kind of ridiculously "obedient" face, but below the surface, there is nothing. Don't you think a good teacher can see through this charade? If anybody thinks they are going to upset their teacher by being honest with them, then they must think their teacher is pretty wobbly. Why would you study with a wobbly teacher?
Be honest, and laugh about it later.

.

I also do that with all my teachers! Honest to the bone!!!!
Hence I am very much satisfied with all my teachers!
Nothing to stay hidden....

[PadmaVonSamba]

Sometimes what appears to a student as something negative is based on the limited understanding of the student.

It is possible to slide a lot of bullshit under this rug.

Well, yeah. Of course it is. But, I'm not saying to close your eyes and don't ask questions. Ask and ask and if you are not satisfied, then be honest with yourself (which you will have to be someday anyhow) and then ask yourself, "okay, now what?"