Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Jikan » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:51 pm

conebeckham wrote:I prefer to think of America as an Experiment, personally. A great experiment, and an ongoing one, to be sure.....but All that romanticism is just another deluded position....


where it's at!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7GgziI8gug

America's not perfect, but it's damned interesting and it's not a half bad place to practice Buddhism.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4279
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby tobes » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:51 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
tobes wrote:If you're speaking about America The Land Of The Free, and invoking the ethos of Hunter S Thompson et al.......well, you're clearly speaking within a long illustrious history - literary, philosophical, political - which privileges the capacity of the individual to choose their own kind of life, live by their own kind of values and rules etc.
Not a long history at all, really bloody short actually!
:namaste:


I sort of get the sense that everyone groans when I put my philosophy hat on, but this history (literary, philosophical et al) is indeed long - it extends back to German idealism/romanticism which was lifting a lot from your ancient homeland.

:anjali:
User avatar
tobes
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:21 pm

Don't get me wrong, I like some aspects of Romaticism - Frankenstein (Prometheus Unchained) is one of my all time favorite novels. But really, it only has a 200-250 year history, no matter how hard it tries to align itself to Ancient Greek philosophy. It was basically just a reaction to the scientific rationalists who were the philosophical/iedeological/political driving force behind the Industrial Revolution.
:namaste:
PS It's currently (very) bad form to say that anything German is even remotely related with Greece. ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby tobes » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:49 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like some aspects of Romaticism - Frankenstein (Prometheus Unchained) is one of my all time favorite novels. But really, it only has a 200-250 year history, no matter how hard it tries to align itself to Ancient Greek philosophy. It was basically just a reaction to the scientific rationalists who were the philosophical/iedeological/political driving force behind the Industrial Revolution.
:namaste:
PS It's currently (very) bad form to say that anything German is even remotely related with Greece. ;)


Kind of agree. There is definitely a dreamy nostalgia for Ancient Greece in a lot of those German romantics - Fredrich Schiller in particular comes to mind - so maybe the connection is mainly a nostalgic construction.

:anjali:
User avatar
tobes
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:39 am

tobes wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like some aspects of Romaticism - Frankenstein (Prometheus Unchained) is one of my all time favorite novels. But really, it only has a 200-250 year history, no matter how hard it tries to align itself to Ancient Greek philosophy. It was basically just a reaction to the scientific rationalists who were the philosophical/iedeological/political driving force behind the Industrial Revolution.
:namaste:
PS It's currently (very) bad form to say that anything German is even remotely related with Greece. ;)


Kind of agree. There is definitely a dreamy nostalgia for Ancient Greece in a lot of those German romantics - Fredrich Schiller in particular comes to mind - so maybe the connection is mainly a nostalgic construction.

:anjali:


Schiller wasn't a Romantic. Nor was Goethe.

Novalis, the Schlegels, Tieck, Wackenroder - and later on Arnim and Brentano - are your guys.

(They weren't too much into Greece, btw. Unlike the second generation of their British counterparts.)
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:36 am

DBH,
didnt anybody ever tell you that dropping acid and reading Jack Kerouac AND CNNR's books at the same time is probably not a good idea? :rolling:
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Fa Dao
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby tobes » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:53 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Schiller wasn't a Romantic. Nor was Goethe.

Novalis, the Schlegels, Tieck, Wackenroder - and later on Arnim and Brentano - are your guys.

(They weren't too much into Greece, btw. Unlike the second generation of their British counterparts.)


I'd definitely include Goethe and Schiller ~ but I'm using the term fairly loosely. I actually just read Goethe's novel, The Sorrows of Young Werther: I'm going to need a lot of convincing that that isn't the quintessential romantic fiction. I'll hear you out though, if you can be bothered.

As for the metaphysicians - well, it seems to me that Aristotle is a pretty central figure for the Schlegels, Hegel, Brentano and others, where the relationship between being and non-being is so important.

In any case, I think this is the kind of conversation that DBH would find problematic!

"I start a thread telling you to be and think free, and you argue over the definition of romanticism!" Sorry DBH. Internet dialogue goes where it goes.....

:anjali:
User avatar
tobes
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Jikan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:41 pm

Sturm und Drang is about as romantic as can be.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4279
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby trevor » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:23 pm

I like what's in Heart Drops of Dharmakaya:

"Some of the masters of Dzogchen introduce the view directly
with a crystal or mirror; some say you must go to a quiet
place to meditate; some say you must have hardship and others
that you must be a beggar. Some of the masters say that you
must give up all your property and go and live in a cemetery
or in the mountains; some again say, "Go now and live as a
madman!" Some say, "Don't desire anything, go and live as a
small child." Others say you must live the opposite of what they
teach; some say, "You should avoid objects that cause anger and
desire and don't expect to have a good reputation!" Others say
whether people say good or bad things about you, you should
not care. These are the sayings of the Dzogchen masters.
"But according to this system we don't accept any teachings
of theirs; we don't think that their teachings are either good or
bad—we don't care. Why? Because we are completely outside
of the judgement of their points. There is no point in arguing
or judging; we don't care. Like the elephant—if he is thirsty
no one can stop him from going to the water! All these different
views have been bounded by thought and so are grasping."
trevor
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:13 pm

Jikan wrote:Sturm und Drang is about as romantic as can be.


I beg to differ. Everything depends on how you choose to define the word 'romantic', goes without saying, but, historically speaking, German romanticism defines itself against both Sturm und Drang and Weimar classicism. Which may also be to say, it was influenced, shaped and defined by them just as it was trying to distance itself from them - and get over what it saw as the pernicious tension between their perspectives. Still, the romantics seem to have appreciated the later Goethe - the Weimar sage, that is - slightly more than the Goethe of Werther.

tobes wrote:I'd definitely include Goethe and Schiller ~ but I'm using the term fairly loosely. I actually just read Goethe's novel, The Sorrows of Young Werther: I'm going to need a lot of convincing that that isn't the quintessential romantic fiction. I'll hear you out though, if you can be bothered.

As for the metaphysicians - well, it seems to me that Aristotle is a pretty central figure for the Schlegels, Hegel, Brentano and others, where the relationship between being and non-being is so important.


The Werther book is early, Sturm und Drang-period Goethe. The romantics didn't have too much time for it - Sturm und Drang wants to be 'sentimental' (in Schiller's, and neither the popular nor the 18th century British, sense of the word), which German romantics appreciated, but, they'd argue, it ultimately fails due to its inability to develop anything close to what Schlegel famously calls romantic irony. Which is an absolutely essential aspect of romanticism - and one which people tend to completely overlook when talking about what they construe as 'romantic'.

Also, neither Hegel not Franz Brentano (the Brentano I spoke of is Claus, Arnim's friend, folklorist and mythographer) were romantics; Hegel had little but contempt for German romanticism - and perhaps the only 'philosophical' name to be connected with the movement was Schelling. Although he too took care to distance himself from the romantics.

Interestingly, Shelley, Beddoes and Keats (and Blake and Coleridge and Wordsworth) weren't romantics either, strictly speaking - by which I want to say, they didn't describe themselves, nor were labelled by their contemporaries, as such. And Shelley's masters were Locke, Shaftesbury, Berkeley and, especially, Hume . . .

Not very romantic, those romantics are - and not much romanticism in that romaticism ;-)
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:49 pm

Anybody order a English Romantic Grecophile with an extra dose of Hellenism?
Lord Byron.jpg
Lord Byron.jpg (18.01 KiB) Viewed 499 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby Jikan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:02 pm

I take a much wider definition of Romanticism: a cultural & intellectual retreat, in response to the social experiment we now know as nascent industrial capitalism, into the individual (or more particularly into subjectivity and affect), into a newly and nostalgically recontextualized Nature, and into a similarly recontextualized Past. Wordsworth and Walter Scott.

I accept that by this measure, Hegel might be *more* Romantic than, say, William Blake.

I'm not a romanticist and I don't teach the English Romantics anymore, so I don't really have a pony in this race, although I must declare an appreciation of certain 19th century writers and artists (the Prophet Against Empire among them).
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4279
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:09 pm

When the matter touches us in an organic way, then there's no use for words. Food. Circulation. Energy. Clarity. Emptiness. Spontaneously accomplished activities. Buddha deity.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:29 pm

The literary reference made earlier was an example. Don't assume that is the lineage. If you think so, then you will be immersing yourself in a worldly mandala. The Buddha mandala is more free than that. Hunter Thompson's body became unbearable after all his years of abusing it and he shot himself in the head while his family was present. He could not die in peace. His is a cautionary tale. As free as you are, if you can't die just by closing your eyes peacefully, your "freedom" is for nothing.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:26 pm

Jikan wrote:I take a much wider definition of Romanticism: a cultural & intellectual retreat, in response to the social experiment we now know as nascent industrial capitalism, into the individual (or more particularly into subjectivity and affect), into a newly and nostalgically recontextualized Nature, and into a similarly recontextualized Past. Wordsworth and Walter Scott.

I accept that by this measure, Hegel might be *more* Romantic than, say, William Blake.

I'm not a romanticist and I don't teach the English Romantics anymore, so I don't really have a pony in this race, although I must declare an appreciation of certain 19th century writers and artists (the Prophet Against Empire among them).


I used to love Blake in my late teens. Hell, some fifteen years later I still love Blake. There. I said it.
Beddoes and especially his maitre a penser Shelley were very, very nice, too, and poor Keats also has his moments.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby kirtu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:53 am

deepbluehum wrote:Truly free. This is America. We can still be free here. We can do sex, drugs and rock'n roll dharma.


:zzz:

Rock'n roll dharma is an American original. Wrathful energy. This is very good.


:zzz:

It's only good if it is liberating. Next you will be advocating sticking your vajra in any hole you like ... well if you can liberate that way then no problem but there is real and fake ...

The point is to be free without harming. .... Don't rely on canons of ethics for the monastery life.


Okay but for some "canons of ethics for monastery life" is liberating.

Of course, be cool. This is America. Be cool, man.


Of course. Be cool - because that's the main American fakery anyway. You have to conform to someone else's idea of "cool" or else you are well and truly frak* in this restrictive hole of a society. Because others are *ALWAYS* voting on your status and place on the island. (cue island kicking off music ....)

Kirt

* interesting - we have edit rules catching some words for the family channel - indeed I used the real verb here conjugated correctly and it even shows when I edit it - we have to change the rules to retain correct conjugation - fracked should be showing rather than frak. I'll have to go find some icon's of Starbucks (the gonzo female pilot on Battlestar Galactica reboot who usually couldn't get through a sentence without invoking some form of frack)
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4095
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby kirtu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:32 am

gregkavarnos wrote:PS It's currently (very) bad form to say that anything German is even remotely related with Greece. ;)


Really? Are the Greeks using a new flag?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4095
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby kirtu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:34 am

deepbluehum wrote:Unleash yourself. Of course, be cool. This is America. Be cool, man.


"Cool" is the quintessential American style of groupthink.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4095
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby kirtu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:40 am

conebeckham wrote:I prefer to think of America as an Experiment, personally. A great experiment, and an ongoing one, to be sure.....but All that romanticism is just another deluded position....


Really? All those homeless people I encountered walking from downtown by city hall to the Castro last October - they're part of this "great experiment"? Perhaps it's an experiment where the disadvantaged get a de facto tatoo and wait in line for the showers in another form .... Now the slightly (and certainly the grossly) more advantaged - they are in an experiment all right ...

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4095
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Don't Let Dharma Reinforce Groupthink

Postby tobes » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:47 am

Jikan wrote:I take a much wider definition of Romanticism: a cultural & intellectual retreat, in response to the social experiment we now know as nascent industrial capitalism, into the individual (or more particularly into subjectivity and affect), into a newly and nostalgically recontextualized Nature, and into a similarly recontextualized Past. Wordsworth and Walter Scott.

I accept that by this measure, Hegel might be *more* Romantic than, say, William Blake.

I'm not a romanticist and I don't teach the English Romantics anymore, so I don't really have a pony in this race, although I must declare an appreciation of certain 19th century writers and artists (the Prophet Against Empire among them).


I agree with this - I really see it as a movement which is highly reflexive about the connection between alienation and industrial society, and seeks to overcome it via aesthetics or an encounter with nature or a mystical experience, possibly all three at once.

But my pony has no stake in the debate - I'm probably over reaching a fair bit.

However, I do find it interesting with respect to Buddhism, or more precisely, western engagements with Buddhism. There are clearly very romanticist forms of engagement with Buddhism - from the yearning for a Tibetan Shangri-la, to the drive towards highly aesthetic and individualised mystical escapes from the world.

I would go as far as to say that Buddhism landed in America on a very romanticist footing. That's why I found DBH's comments kind of interesting.

:anjali:
User avatar
tobes
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: namoh and 11 guests

>