Translating "Dzogchenpa"

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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
If you think that apple trees can grow from wheat seeds, you have left the realm of common sense.

N


Well, hand prints in rock, or Milarepa fitting inside a yak's horn...these have
all left common sense far behind. Vajrayana is meant to invoke uncommon sense.



Funny how no one ever sees these "miracles" actually done. Oh right, we don't have enough merit, I forgot.

If you assume for example that Virupa really stopped the sun such a cataclysmic event shoud have been recorded around the world. Can you imagine?


I think you've maxed out on the number of times you can use that example. But since it's your favorite, I'll give it a go:
If Virupa was indeed a Mahasiddha, and he was working with the display of appearances
to play with the presumptions of those in his immediate environment-- why would he want to scare the
shit out of an entire world? I think you are really clinging to something that you feel should make sense to you, about a display that
goes beyond sense altogether. This misses the point.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:

Funny how no one ever sees these "miracles" actually done. Oh right, we don't have enough merit, I forgot.



Sure, plenty of people see miracles. I have experienced enough
that defies common sense not to entrust my faith to common-sense.
Frankly, in all your time practicing Dharma and being around
the Lamas you have, I'd be surprised if you've never experienced
anything that defies "common sense". If you haven't, than I suppose
it explains our different positions.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:50 pm

Adamantine wrote:
I think you've maxed out on the number of times you can use that example. But since it's your favorite, I'll give it a go:
If Virupa was indeed a Mahasiddha, and he was working with the display of appearances
to play with the presumptions of those in his immediate environment-- why would he want to scare the
shit out of an entire world? I think you are really clinging to something that you feel should make sense to you, about a display that
goes beyond sense altogether. This misses the point.


Then you have in fact admitted this is not a historical event, whatever else it may have been, and he did not stop the world's rotation on its axis (required for "stopping the sun").

So Mahasiddhas distort the perceptions of those whom they are trying to impress? Is that how it works?

Mahasiddhas can no more violate dependent origination than anyone else can.

I am not clinging to anything -- I don't take the stories of mahāsiddha's miracles literally, never have, never felt the need to.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:52 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Funny how no one ever sees these "miracles" actually done. Oh right, we don't have enough merit, I forgot.



Sure, plenty of people see miracles. I have experienced enough
that defies common sense not to entrust my faith to common-sense.
Frankly, in all your time practicing Dharma and being around
the Lamas you have, I'd be surprised if you've never experienced
anything that defies "common sense". If you haven't, than I suppose
it explains our different positions.


The only I have ever seen around Lamas that defies common sense is the willingness of people to lose it.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:56 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The fact is that Tibetan Buddhism is completely patriarchal and sexist -- in fact it is pretty toxic for women in general and is in much need of reform (some of which is happening).

N


I understand these things can be generalized-- but I just have rarely if ever seen any of these tendencies in a number of Tibetan lamas I've had the good fortune to study with--


Maybe because you are not a beautiful, young woman.... :tongue:
(That was a joke which has a lot of truth in it :stirthepot: )
Tibetans can be as much patriarchal and sexist as any Greek, French, American etc., even when they have high titles and wear the holly frock! ;)
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:00 pm

Namdrol wrote:Nyingmapas are every bit as bad as the all the others -- this is a Tibetan cultural issue, not a lineage issue. Tibetans do not have, in their own culture, an idea of civil rights and universal sufferage. This is because Tibetans have not yet rejected the feudal power stuctures of their past -- in fact, all they have done is export them to west where they survive in extra-govermental organizations -- very much like the papacy preserving the stuctures of the Roman Imperium with the Pope as emporer and the college of cardinals representing the senate.

I do not want to paint all Tibetans in a bad light-- they are human beings just as we are, and we like they suffer many faults too that are a result of acculturation. But let's not be blind, shall we?

N


I agree with Namdrol. :thumbsup:
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~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Then you have in fact admitted this is not a historical event, whatever else it may have been, and he did not stop the world's rotation on its axis (required for "stopping the sun").


Not at all: there's so many possibilities you choose to ignore because
you prefer to look at things in a common way.

So Mahasiddhas distort the perceptions of those whom they are trying to impress? Is that how it works?


Well sure if you want to be trite and cynical. Or maybe he distorted the perceptions of
the outlying populations from experiencing it out of context and
panicking. I am just trying to point out there's more ways to look at this other
than your way. I am actually not that interested in this specific case. Your dualistic framework of "either it's this or it's that" is not quite in line with how Buddhas communicate about the nature of reality.
I suppose your view is that Virupa, Tilopa, Padmasambhava, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Yeshe Tsogyal,
all the tertons and various siddhas of Tibet and India-- all of these never had any extraordinary abilities, and none of the accounts of their lives are true-- just fabricated myths..

I find this a nihilistic perspective: cynical
and self-limiting. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Mahasiddhas can no more violate dependent origination than anyone else can.
Well it seems that in your opinion dependent origination = a mundane western scientific version of cause and effect. In my understanding there is a bit more to it than that. How you hold fast to this supreme view of common sense and yet still maintain a belief in the possibility of rainbow-body or nirmanakaya display is beyond me. I suppose you think bodhisattvas are just extra-nice people, nothing else particularly special about them?

I am not clinging to anything -- I don't take the stories of mahāsiddha's miracles literally, never have, never felt the need to.


You certainly appear to be clinging to this fabrication you call "common-sense".
And I simply don't have as much faith in historical empiricism as you do...
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:The only I have ever seen around Lamas that defies common sense is the willingness of people to lose it.


That's sad, if true. Well, you still have more life ahead of you. . .
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:18 pm

Adamantine wrote: Your dualistic framework of "either it's this or it's that" is not quite in line with how Buddhas communicate about the nature of reality.


The Buddha's framework is "Where this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:19 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The only I have ever seen around Lamas that defies common sense is the willingness of people to lose it.


That's sad, if true. Well, you still have more life ahead of you. . .
Adamantine wrote: Your dualistic framework of "either it's this or it's that" is not quite in line with how Buddhas communicate about the nature of reality.


The Buddha's framework is "Where this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:20 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Adamantine wrote:then it seems to me that this would render our faith in vajrayana and guru yoga sterile, and there wouldn't be much point in following this path at all.


If we are following Vajrayāna because of some miraculous tale, we are doomed before we have even started.



Exactly! :thumbsup:
It is not at all matter of faith.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:44 pm

Adamantine wrote:
You certainly appear to be clinging to this fabrication you call "common-sense".
And I simply don't have as much faith in historical empiricism as you do...


Look, the simple fact is that Tibetan Buddhism, like every other faith in the world, needs to adapt to the modern age. It is trying to adapt -- I am not suggesting that it needs to abandon its narratives, principles such as rebirth, and so on. But when it comes to how it works its way through the world, the teachings need to adapt themselves to the society in which they find themselves. Mahasiddhas stopping the sun are not essential to Dzogchen or Tibetan Buddhism. Insisting such stories are "true" is actually a huge impediment for many people who might otherwise come to the Dharma.

Another huge impediment is that woman are not treated as equals in Tibetan Buddhism. In particular, young attrative woman are subject to tremendous sexual attention, most of it unwanted, as well as actual harrasament, emotional abuse and scare tactics which prevent them from speaking out. This is not of course a problem isolated to Tibetan Buddhism -- sexual harrasment of women is a worldwide issue. But the fact that is exists in Tibetan Buddhism needs to be recognized and not explained away, justified or otherwise ignored.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:So Mahasiddhas distort the perceptions of those whom they are trying to impress? Is that how it works?

Mahasiddhas can no more violate dependent origination than anyone else can.

I am not clinging to anything -- I don't take the stories of mahāsiddha's miracles literally, never have, never felt the need to.


It is the way I also see it.
I was never interested in miracles and supernatural appearances, which exist in all religions, inner traditions and fairy tales as well.
I don't say they cannot exist, but this is not the main point.
Those stories can be didactic allegories for putting the seeds in the minds of naive, uneducated people or occasionally external manifestations of phenomena, which in fact may lead us far away from the aim of Total Liberation.
Last edited by Dronma on Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:38 am

Adamantine wrote:Well sure if you want to be trite and cynical. Or maybe he distorted the perceptions of
the outlying populations from experiencing it out of context and
panicking. I am just trying to point out there's more ways to look at this other
than your way. I am actually not that interested in this specific case. Your dualistic framework of "either it's this or it's that" is not quite in line with how Buddhas communicate about the nature of reality.
I suppose your view is that Virupa, Tilopa, Padmasambhava, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Yeshe Tsogyal,
all the tertons and various siddhas of Tibet and India-- all of these never had any extraordinary abilities, and none of the accounts of their lives are true-- just fabricated myths..


Adamantine, with all the respect, I think that you have a tendency to go to the extremes.
Maybe I also have it.... Because I am going to say right now something which probably will shock you.
What about if none of these stories really existed? What about if none of these people really existed in human form?
For making clear what I mean, please study the following text:
"An Extremely Profound Commentary on The Meaning Of The Vajra Seven Line Prayer To Guru Rinpoche"
by Tulku Thondup

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/7_Line_Prayer_To_Guru_Rinpoche/7lnpryr.htm

In this commentary there are all the different levels of explanation of the Seven Line Prayer.
When I am reading the last levels of explanation, I understand that the first level, which is the well known story of the Great Master Padmasambhava - with all the extraordinary appearances - has very little (or better no) value for my realization.
In fact, I do not even care if that person ever existed !!!!!
The real value of the Seven Line Prayer is arising when the explanation goes beyond the narration of that extraordinary biography. When it goes beyond hope and faith! :meditate:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:54 am

Namdrol wrote:Look, the simple fact is that Tibetan Buddhism, like every other faith in the world, needs to adapt to the modern age. It is trying to adapt -- I am not suggesting that it needs to abandon its narratives, principles such as rebirth, and so on. But when it comes to how it works its way through the world, the teachings need to adapt themselves to the society in which they find themselves. Mahasiddhas stopping the sun are not essential to Dzogchen or Tibetan Buddhism. Insisting such stories are "true" is actually a huge impediment for many people who might otherwise come to the Dharma.


Listen, you're the one that picked that particular story as your example: not I. I have no doubt that there is some exaggeration or symbolic license mixed into various hagiographies of the siddhas and other great masters. I also have no doubt that many of the so-called miraculous acts did, in fact, happen. Why? Because as I have said my own direct experience defies common sense and I have learned from trustworthy sources close to me first-hand and second-hand accounts of various so-called miraculous occurrences. Listing all of them here for you to try to critique seems like not respecting them properly.

I also feel like you are being willfully obtuse for someone who follows terma traditions and who was close with Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje who was able to alter weather patterns on a regular basis.

In terms of a publicly spoken of 'miracle' (I am using quotes because I am no fan of the word in this context) I don't feel shy about bringing up is related to a terma phurba in the possession of the Nechung Oracle (himself a type of contradiction to common sense) who regularly gives very powerful public Kilaya blessings with it. He told us that the elderly monk who gave him the phurba was actually there in person when it was revealed, and told him about how he watched Lerab Lingpa plunge his hand into the side of a cliff-face-- the rock reacting like liquid as he pulled it out. Tulku Urgyen describes a similar account of his grandmother, the daughter of Chokgyur Lingpa, who witnessed him reveal many tromter (public terma) for the benefit of skeptics such as yourself. In this one account she and over a thousand others witnessed him as he drew a design on the surface of the rock, and the rock then opened up like the "anus of a cow and the stone just poured out to reveal a cavity containing the terma. As the interior became visible, we saw that it was filled with scintillating rainbow light. We also noticed an unusually lovely fragrance that seemed to permeate the entire valley. A vast quantity of scarlet sindhura powder came spilling forth as well." She goes on to say after he blessed people with the objects and explained them, the whole crowd wept out of faith and devotion. "Even if you were a stubborn intellectual, all skepticism would melt away. Everyone was struck with wonder."

Now, I guess you think that Tulku Urgyen's grandma was lying to him just to control him with the opium of religion? And the elderly Nechung monk too? Would that be the motivation of all my sources, at least one of which you've described as one of your Lamas? You think that is my motivation when I allude to experiences beyond "common-sense"? If so, you are getting a bit too close to the mindset of Chinese Communists.

Another thing I can discuss openly is a video I witnessed which an acquaintance showed me, along with the Nechung Oracle, of a young tulku from Kathok monastery in Tibet. This tulku carries around the kangling which was actually the thigh-bone of his previous incarnation. He has a habit of producing blessing-pills from his head. He rubs his head and these perfectly polished little pills which are quite fragrant just bubble forth and fall into his lap. Many Tibetans have been inspired with faith seeing this, and everyone wants to collect the pills for their blessing power-- he tells people to put them in bodies of water where they will benefit countless beings. Enough stories about him circulated to disturb the Chinese Government at high levels so they "invited" him to Bejiing, and flew him there where they requested him to display this activity. He did, and they then "asked" him never to do it again. Of course, people continued to ask him to do it back at home with pure faith and he wouldn't say no, so my acquaintance was afraid for this Lama's life. The tulku never liked anyone documenting this but because this American guy was an old friend at that point, had devotion, and was helping them rebuild gompas there.. he agreed but only on the condition he would only show the video to people with faith. I happened to be there when he wanted to share it with the Nechung Oracle so I had the opportunity to watch, and there is no trickery involved, -- you can clearly see these little pellets popping forth from the top of his head. I was given a few, actually.. Does this kind of thing jive with your "common-sense"? It certainly doesn't jive with the PRC.

Another huge impediment is that woman are not treated as equals in Tibetan Buddhism. In particular, young attrative woman are subject to tremendous sexual attention, most of it unwanted, as well as actual harrasament, emotional abuse and scare tactics which prevent them from speaking out.
[/quote]

I am sure this happens sometimes.. but this is not particular to Tibetan Buddhism. This is particular to men-in-general across the globe. Men's libidos cause great harm to women, in various ways, across all traditions and among all those who hold no tradition. This is the sad truth. To blame Tibetan Buddhism for having men who also engage in this harmful stupidity is the same as blaming "Tibetan Buddhism" for having samsaric individuals in it that aren't yet Buddhas. Of course, not everyone practicing Dharma is yet a Buddha, and is subject to craving and aversion... and not everyone's conduct is in line with relative Dharma ethics. But this hardly can be determined to be a downfall of Tibetan Buddhism in particular. If that were true, then you wouldn't find these same downfalls across the board on a global scale. This is a human downfall. I don't think any Buddhas have acted in this way.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:04 am

Dronma wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well sure if you want to be trite and cynical. Or maybe he distorted the perceptions of
the outlying populations from experiencing it out of context and
panicking. I am just trying to point out there's more ways to look at this other
than your way. I am actually not that interested in this specific case. Your dualistic framework of "either it's this or it's that" is not quite in line with how Buddhas communicate about the nature of reality.
I suppose your view is that Virupa, Tilopa, Padmasambhava, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Yeshe Tsogyal,
all the tertons and various siddhas of Tibet and India-- all of these never had any extraordinary abilities, and none of the accounts of their lives are true-- just fabricated myths..


Adamantine, with all the respect, I think that you have a tendency to go to the extremes.
Maybe I also have it.... Because I am going to say right now something which probably will shock you.
What about if none of these stories really existed? What about if none of these people really existed in human form?
For making clear what I mean, please study the following text:
"An Extremely Profound Commentary on The Meaning Of The Vajra Seven Line Prayer To Guru Rinpoche"
by Tulku Thondup

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/7_Line_Prayer_To_Guru_Rinpoche/7lnpryr.htm

In this commentary there are all the different levels of explanation of the Seven Line Prayer.
When I am reading the last levels of explanation, I understand that the first level, which is the well known story of the Great Master Padmasambhava - with all the extraordinary appearances - has very little (or better no) value for my realization.
In fact, I do not even care if that person ever existed !!!!!
The real value of the Seven Line Prayer is arising when the explanation goes beyond the narration of that extraordinary biography. When it goes beyond hope and faith! :meditate:


Listen Dronma, I am not attached to miracles, or miracle stories.. but denying them (especially if you've had the fortune to witness some, or know people who did firsthand) in order to stay in the tidy box of common-sense is foolish.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Malcolm » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:19 am

Adamantine wrote:

I also feel like you are being willfully obtuse for someone who follows terma traditions and who was close with Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje who was able to alter weather patterns on a regular basis.



Ngagpa Rinpoche could control weather, but it is not a miracle. Doubtless, there are some people who can control the elements.

My point is that there is no reason to accept any of this on faith and nor should one.



Another huge impediment is that woman are not treated as equals in Tibetan Buddhism. In particular, young attrative woman are subject to tremendous sexual attention, most of it unwanted, as well as actual harrasament, emotional abuse and scare tactics which prevent them from speaking out.


I am sure this happens sometimes.. but this is not particular to Tibetan Buddhism. This is particular to men-in-general across the globe. Men's libidos cause great harm to women, in various ways, across all traditions and among all those who hold no tradition. This is the sad truth. To blame Tibetan Buddhism for having men who also engage in this harmful stupidity is the same as blaming "Tibetan Buddhism" for having samsaric individuals in it that aren't yet Buddhas. Of course, not everyone practicing Dharma is yet a Buddha, and is subject to craving and aversion... and not everyone's conduct is in line with relative Dharma ethics. But this hardly can be determined to be a downfall of Tibetan Buddhism in particular. If that were true, then you wouldn't find these same downfalls across the board on a global scale. This is a human downfall. I don't think any Buddhas have acted in this way.
[/quote]

Pretending that this not a problem in Tibetan Buddhism is merely to put on your blinders. Until we accept that this is a problem in Tibetan Buddhism, it will not be properly addressed. This is just like saying pedophilia is not a Catholic problem, it is a problem with men across the world. Well, there are ways in which pedophilia was institutionalized in Catholicism, and ways in which sexual harrasement and so on are institutionalized in Tibetan Buddhism -- the sooner we recognize that fact and stop wishing it would just go away, the sooner women will feel safer around Tibetan teachers. You see, I know at least a dozen women who have been on the short end of that stick, and for them it is not pretty, and it is not fair.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:27 am

Adamantine wrote:Listen Dronma, I am not attached to miracles, or miracle stories.. but denying them (especially if you've had the fortune to witness some, or know people who did firsthand) in order to stay in the tidy box of common-sense is foolish.


Hmm.... I also know personally people who talk about experiencing miracles, but honestly I do not believe them. Or better I do not believe their interpretation of what they consider as miracle.
In any case, please read the text I linked above and then if you like, we can talk under this perspective of what is really important for our realization and what is not. :smile:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:35 am

Namdrol wrote:
Adamantine wrote:

I also feel like you are being willfully obtuse for someone who follows terma traditions and who was close with Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje who was able to alter weather patterns on a regular basis.



Ngagpa Rinpoche could control weather, but it is not a miracle. Doubtless, there are some people who can control the elements.

My point is that there is no reason to accept any of this on faith and nor should one.


You are the one who used the word miracle-- and I never advocated blind faith. Controlling weather and elements certainly doesn't correspond with "common-sense" or a modern world view.




Another huge impediment is that woman are not treated as equals in Tibetan Buddhism. In particular, young attrative woman are subject to tremendous sexual attention, most of it unwanted, as well as actual harrasament, emotional abuse and scare tactics which prevent them from speaking out.


I am sure this happens sometimes.. but this is not particular to Tibetan Buddhism. This is particular to men-in-general across the globe. Men's libidos cause great harm to women, in various ways, across all traditions and among all those who hold no tradition. This is the sad truth. To blame Tibetan Buddhism for having men who also engage in this harmful stupidity is the same as blaming "Tibetan Buddhism" for having samsaric individuals in it that aren't yet Buddhas. Of course, not everyone practicing Dharma is yet a Buddha, and is subject to craving and aversion... and not everyone's conduct is in line with relative Dharma ethics. But this hardly can be determined to be a downfall of Tibetan Buddhism in particular. If that were true, then you wouldn't find these same downfalls across the board on a global scale. This is a human downfall. I don't think any Buddhas have acted in this way.


Pretending that this not a problem in Tibetan Buddhism is merely to put on your blinders. Until we accept that this is a problem in Tibetan Buddhism, it will not be properly addressed. This is just like saying pedophilia is not a Catholic problem, it is a problem with men across the world. Well, there are ways in which pedophilia was institutionalized in Catholicism, and ways in which sexual harrasement and so on are institutionalized in Tibetan Buddhism -- the sooner we recognize that fact and stop wishing it would just go away, the sooner women will feel safer around Tibetan teachers. You see, I know at least a dozen women who have been on the short end of that stick, and for them it is not pretty, and it is not fair.

N


There are many problems you can find in institutionalized Tibetan Buddhism, including homosexual pedophilia in the monasteries just as with the Catholic Church. And yes, this should not be permitted, or ignored.. but it is certainly a global problem regarding the male libido, and not particular to either institution. I have never encountered these problems with the teachers and sanghas I frequent.. though I am aware of them in others. If you have any great ideas about how to solve these problems please spread the word, but as a male it is hard enough to control my own libido without trying to take on those of others..
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:22 am

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Pretending that this not a problem in Tibetan Buddhism is merely to put on your blinders. Until we accept that this is a problem in Tibetan Buddhism, it will not be properly addressed. This is just like saying pedophilia is not a Catholic problem, it is a problem with men across the world. Well, there are ways in which pedophilia was institutionalized in Catholicism, and ways in which sexual harrasement and so on are institutionalized in Tibetan Buddhism -- the sooner we recognize that fact and stop wishing it would just go away, the sooner women will feel safer around Tibetan teachers. You see, I know at least a dozen women who have been on the short end of that stick, and for them it is not pretty, and it is not fair.

N


There are many problems you can find in institutionalized Tibetan Buddhism, including homosexual pedophilia in the monasteries just as with the Catholic Church. And yes, this should not be permitted, or ignored.. but it is certainly a global problem regarding the male libido, and not particular to either institution. I have never encountered these problems with the teachers and sanghas I frequent.. though I am aware of them in others. If you have any great ideas about how to solve these problems please spread the word, but as a male it is hard enough to control my own libido without trying to take on those of others..



Well, I'm tired to say again: I agree with Namdrol. :meditate:
But I am also satisfied to see that Adamantine has reached at a point in which, at last, he partly admits the existence of patriarchy and sexism in Tibetan Buddhism. This is a BIG step for him, since a few pages ago he was over-defending and sanctifying everything. Of course, he is still trying to minimize it by generalization - see: "but it is certainly a global problem regarding the male libido" - and personal justification - see: "but as a male it is hard enough to control my own libido".
I am sorry, but these are not good excuses at all, Adamantine!

Moreover, I'd like to reply now to your question: "I leveled no personal attacks against you at all. Where do you see a personal attack?". You addressed me several times "arrogant, dogmatic, wacky, that my intention was cultural imperialism, about my own myopic gender-politics" etc.
Please, be more gentle and sensitive next time that a woman will object about sexism - and most of all spiritual sexism which is the most dangerous!

As for your last challenge if we have any great ideas about how to solve these problems...
Why don't we start from deleting totally the unacceptable notion: "a woman is an inferior rebirth comparing to a man"? :guns:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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