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the great rebirth debate - Page 58 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:22 pm


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Annapurna
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:46 pm

I don't really wish to participate in rebirth discussions anymore.

I find them confusing and sometimes painful to read, while reading the sutthas always brings me clarity and refreshment.

So that is all I have to say. :smile:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

alan
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby alan » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:19 am

Gethin's argument is that without rebirth Buddhist philosophy falls apart. A good read.
I don't know, but will take it on faith, like Nibbana.
If we don't believe that, why be Buddhist?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pegembara
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby pegembara » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:08 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:12 pm

I don't have a problem, personally, with anyone putting rebirth aside if it's presenting an obstacle for their practice. As essential as Right View may be, the teachings may not take into account the possibility of secularized ethical systems (humanism, environmentalism, unitarianism, etc) which have a similar function.

What I do think is important is to understand how rebirth works within the Buddha's teaching, why is is important and could even be considered central.

If we understand that, each of us is free to decide what we want to do with the information. It's bothersome, though, when people intentionally obscure the issue because it doesn't fit their (Westernized, secular) conception of how Buddhism should be.

It's not that I don't sympathize, coming from a fairly Westernized and secular background myself. It's just that I feel it's a path to misery. Too much cognitive dissonance involved, too much selective reading, too many "clever" interpretations. Not to mention having to minimize or dismiss the actual living tradition of Buddhism in many countries, where ordinary practice is focused on merit and gaining a favorable rebirth.

Many years ago I had a good friend who liked to meditate and was interested in the dhamma. And then he went to Asia and became very disappointed, saying "oh, it's just another religion". This is what happens sooner or later if the religious aspect is not presented up front.

It seems fairly clear that the dhamma rests on kammic rebirth as a given. Now maybe it's possible that the foundation can be kicked away at some point. And whether the "given" is a true assumption or not, it's produced a set of practices and beliefs which we consider valid to some degree. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:40 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Shonin
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Shonin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:43 pm

There is no basis for claiming that Buddha did not (like his spiritual peers) teach literal rebirth (although it seems to be more a premise than a point of faith), however this is not the same as not believing in literal rebirth of course.

Personally I subscribe to the theory of karmic reproduction:

At death our karma divides into two and each of these halves combines with equivalent half from a different person and the resulting whole forms a new person, who inherits half the karma from one lifetime and half the karma from another.

There is also an asexual form, where the karma divides and each half goes on to be inherited by a single future being.

'But which being will be me?' I hear you ask. I can only sigh in response.
Last edited by Shonin on Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:53 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Will
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Will » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:02 pm

Last edited by Will on Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:08 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:40 pm


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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:45 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Sunrise » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:05 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:10 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:30 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Viscid
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Viscid » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:57 pm

"What holds attention determines action." - William James

Individual
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:01 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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bodom
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby bodom » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:43 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Shonin
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Postby Shonin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:44 am

Last edited by Shonin on Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.


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