RuShi ?

[Aemilius]

Are these extraordinary inner preliminaries called Rushi being done in Nyingma centres ? How does it look like? -au naturel ?

[heart]

Are these extraordinary inner preliminaries called Rushi being done in Nyingma centres ? How does it look like? -au naturel ?

Normally only in retreat and only in secluded locations but it depends on what part of the Rushens you mean.

/magnus

[Aemilius]

Hello !
I read what it says in wikipedia about the 17 or 18 maha-ati tantras, they seem to be connected with the Five-peaked Mountain, and thus with China. But then there seem to be some (tibetans, maybe?) who are anxious to explain that Dzogchen has never existed outside Tibet, at least not in China! Even though it has been told before that it really did exist in China, through Manjushrimitra (and others?). Karma Chagme says in his Spacious Path to Freedom that there is a third dzogchen lineage that is an indian lineage through brahmin Manavaka. What do you think? Is it not likely that maha-ati has existed in India, and China also ?? -As has been said in the histories of Dzogchen. I think it is only nationalistic propaganda that tries to distort this real and true history of Maha-ati.

[Josef]

Hello !
I read what it says in wikipedia about the 17 or 18 maha-ati tantras, they seem to be connected with the Five-peaked Mountain, and thus with China. But then there seem to be some (tibetans, maybe?) who are anxious to explain that Dzogchen has never existed outside Tibet, at least not in China! Even though it has been told before that it really did exist in China, through Manjushrimitra (and others?). Karma Chagme says in his Spacious Path to Freedom that there is a third dzogchen lineage that is an indian lineage through brahmin Manavaka. What do you think? Is it not likely that maha-ati has existed in India, and China also ?? -As has been said in the histories of Dzogchen. I think it is only nationalistic propaganda that tries to distort this real and true history of Maha-ati.

How does this relate to the subject of this thread in any way?
If anything sounds like propaganda its Aemilius' inaccurate and off-topic post.

[Aemilius]

It is connected to what Heart says elsewhere, it is kind of interesting to read the wikipedia thing called Seventeen Tantrashttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_tantras and I wanted to share this piece with others.

[Pema Rigdzin]

I've never heard anyone say that Dzogchen has never existed outside Tibet except detractors that question Dzogchen's validity. The Tibetan Dzogchen lineages all place its origin (in terms of this world) in India with Garab Dorje. I don't believe Dzogchen is said to have ever been widely taught in China, but I'm sure I've read of some masters going there and spending time there. Can't remember any details though.

Another thing is the practices you're referring to aren't "rushi" but "ru shen." Yes they are definitely practiced in some Nyingma and Kagyu organizations in the U.S. in a retreat setting, in isolation. Nothing more can be said about the way these practices are carried out because this information is only for the ears and eyes of those who have received the transmission and detailed instructions from a qualified master. Many in the West have a great curiosity and there's academic interest, but in the eyes of the lineage, the only reason at all to explain these teachings to someone is because he/she has a sincere wish and determination to practice them from beginning to end. Such people can approach qualified lamas and make a request, though they must be prepared to undergo whatever amount of preliminary practice the lama may require. So that is the avenue for discovering these practices.

[Aemilius]

[quote="Pema Rigdzin"]I've never heard anyone say that Dzogchen has never existed outside Tibet except detractors that question Dzogchen's validity. The Tibetan Dzogchen lineages all place its origin (in terms of this world) in India with Garab Dorje. I don't believe Dzogchen is said to have ever been widely taught in China, but I'm sure I've read of some masters going there and spending time there. Can't remember any details though. "

The above mentioned Wikipedia article The Seventeen Tantras says that ShriSimha brought them from beneath the Vajra Seat and took them to the Tree of Enlightenment in China. And Venerable Gyatrul Rimpoche says in his commentary to Karma Chagme's Spacious Path to Freedom that Vidyadhara Sri Simha is a native of China, and that he taught 100 000 people there.

[Aemilius]

Another thing is the practices you're referring to aren't "rushi" but "ru shen." Yes they are definitely practiced in some Nyingma and Kagyu organizations in the U.S. in a retreat setting, in isolation. Nothing more can be said about the way these practices are carried out because this information is only for the ears and eyes of those who have received the transmission and detailed instructions from a qualified master. Many in the West have a great curiosity and there's academic interest, but in the eyes of the lineage, the only reason at all to explain these teachings to someone is because he/she has a sincere wish and determination to practice them from beginning to end. Such people can approach qualified lamas and make a request, though they must be prepared to undergo whatever amount of preliminary practice the lama may require. So that is the avenue for discovering these practices.

Keith Dowman has mentioned them a couple of times, he writes it Ruzshi, and gives a brief comment.

[Josef]

Another thing is the practices you're referring to aren't "rushi" but "ru shen." Yes they are definitely practiced in some Nyingma and Kagyu organizations in the U.S. in a retreat setting, in isolation. Nothing more can be said about the way these practices are carried out because this information is only for the ears and eyes of those who have received the transmission and detailed instructions from a qualified master. Many in the West have a great curiosity and there's academic interest, but in the eyes of the lineage, the only reason at all to explain these teachings to someone is because he/she has a sincere wish and determination to practice them from beginning to end. Such people can approach qualified lamas and make a request, though they must be prepared to undergo whatever amount of preliminary practice the lama may require. So that is the avenue for discovering these practices.

Keith Dowman has mentioned them a couple of times, he writes it Ruzshi, and gives a brief comment.

Ruzshi doesnt make any sense, unless he is referring to something else.
Dowman has some pretty kooky translations though.
You will most often see them transliterated as Rushen or Korde Rushen.
And as others have said they arent really practiced unless one has received at least the first part of the Rigpai tsal wang.

[Josef]

And Venerable Gyatrul Rimpoche says in his commentary to Karma Chagme's Spacious Path to Freedom that Vidyadhara Sri Simha is a native of China, and that he taught 100 000 people there.

The commentaries say that Sri Simha traveled to India where he received the Tantra's. He then concealed them in Western Tibet.

[muni]

Dualism, samsara - nirvana.

Cleaning day. There was dust on the precious Guru Rinpoche statue.

[Aemilius]

And Venerable Gyatrul Rimpoche says in his commentary to Karma Chagme's Spacious Path to Freedom that Vidyadhara Sri Simha is a native of China, and that he taught 100 000 people there.

The commentaries say that Sri Simha traveled to India where he received the Tantra's. He then concealed them in Western Tibet.

That is just what I had in mind, it is an example of tibetan patriotism, patriotism is nothing exceptional or totally lacking in buddhist histories, so I find the histories told in Wikipedia sources and by Karma Chagme & Gyatrul Rimpoche more interesting and more wide in view.
I have few times experienced that books too change, this passage in the Spacious Path to Freedom, reads now ( the commentary of Gyatrul Rimpoche):
Sri Simha went back to China and brought there 700 000 people to full enlightenment!!
Karma Chagme writes that there have been 12 revealers of Atiyoga (and then gives their names, the 12th being Shakyamuni), he says that they revealed 64 hundred thousand Atiyoga tantras. Sometimes this passage has read:"They revealed 64 hundred thousand million Atiyoga tantras" !!
During the years many different histories of Dzogchen has been published and told, I think it is usefull to compare them, at least the ones you have come across.

[heart]

About the lineage of the 17 Tantras.

"In Tibet, the ones who made this Nyingtik teaching of Clear Light spread were the great masters who possessed their special direct transmission, chiefly the great pandita Vimalamitra, and Guru Padmasambhava. In the room known as Utseʼ Barkhang in Samye, Vimalamitra gave the cycle of the Innermost Secret Nyingtik of Dzogpachenpo in strictest secrecy to five disciples: the King Trisong Detsen, Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo, Prince Muni Tsepo, Kawa Platsek and Chokro Luyi Gyaltsen. The tradition of Nyingtik which came down from this transmission is known as the Vima Nyingtik. The Vima Nyingtik itself can be categorized into tantras, agamas, and upadeshas, which are all taught within it. The tantras here refer to the Seventeen Tantras of the pith instruction. The agamas found in the Vima Nyingtik are the golden lettered instructions, the turquoise lettered instructions, the copper lettered instructions, and the conch lettered instructions. These are what are called the ʻfour volumes of profound instructionsʼ. Then the upadeshas refer to the 119 treatises of essential pith instructions. Vimalamitra spent thirteen years in Tibet, and then promising to return to Tibet every hundred years as an emanation to further the Clear Light teaching of Dzogpachenpo, he left for the Wutaishan mountain in China. There he remain until all of the 1000 buddhas of this Fortunate Kalpa have appeared. When they have all done so, he will once again go to Vajrasana in India, where he will manifest the state of complete and perfect enlightenment.
Fifty-five years after Vimalamitraʼs departure for Wutaishan, Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo, having given the transmission of the Vima Nyingtik cycle to Be Lodro Wangchuk, attained the rainbow body. Be Lodro Wangchuk gave the pith instructions cycle of Nyingtik to Dangma Lhundrup Gyaltsen, who in turn passed it on to Chetsun Senge Wangchuk. He transmitted it to Gyalwa Shyangton Tashi Dorje, and then left this world in a rainbow body. Gyalwa Shyangton passed it on to the great siddha Khepa Nyimabum, who gave the teachings to his principal disciple Guru Jober. Then Guru Jober transmitted them to Trulshik Senge Gyabpa. He in turn gave them to the great siddha Drupchen Melong Dorje, who passed them on to the vidyadhara Kumaradza. Kumaradza gave the teachings to the Omniscient Longchen Rabjam, and so this is how the lineage flowed down to the Omniscient Longchenpa, who was born in the year 1308."

http://www.knamdrol.org/nyingthig-transmissions.pdf

/magnus

[Aemilius]

Hello Heart !
Have you met Keith Dowman, in Kathamandu or elsewhere? What do think of his Lineage tree of dzogchen? -viewable here:http://keithdowman.net/lineage/lineage_trees.htm

Is your name a shortened version of Padma-heart? -or is it something else ?

[heart]

Hello Heart !
Have you met Keith Dowman, in Kathamandu or elsewhere? What do think of his Lineage tree of dzogchen? -viewable here:http://keithdowman.net/lineage/lineage_trees.htm

Is your name a shortened version of Padma-heart? -or is it something else ?

Hi Aemilius,

Never met Keith Dowman. I find his translations very difficult to read. I think the lineage tree on his site is ok but for some reason he don't mention that Guru Rinpoche was a student of Shri Singha also and from him comes many important Dzogchen teachings, for example Khandro Nyingthig just to mention the most famous one.

My nick heart is something I been using for many years as a unix system administrator in the meaning "the heart of the matter". It works as a pointer to the Nyinthig tradition also.

/magnus

[Aemilius]

Hi Aemilius,

Never met Keith Dowman. I find his translations very difficult to read. I think the lineage tree on his site is ok but for some reason he don't mention that Guru Rinpoche was a student of Shri Singha also and from him comes many important Dzogchen teachings, for example Khandro Nyingthig just to mention the most famous one.

My nick heart is something I been using for many years as a unix system administrator in the meaning "the heart of the matter". It works as a pointer to the Nyinthig tradition also.

/magnus[/quote]

Hello !
Tarthang Tulku says that lineage is always a manysided and complex issue in true reality. Various lineages are based on religious-political concensus or power struggle. If you want to the realize the equality of samsara and nirvana you can start meditating on the manner in which the lineage-lists are made. Keith Dowman says that he worked as translator and student at Dharma publishing in its early days. Padmasambhava figures prominently in the Nyingma Annals of Tarthang Tulku. Keith Dowman lists his sources for his lineage trees, among them are Jetsun Taranatha's Seven Instruction Lineages and the work of Dudjom Rinpoche, no mention of Tarthang Tulku. I find his style clear and elegant, his Masters of Mahamudra is most valuable, for example. He uses both sanskrit and tibetan sources for its background information. Keith Dowman teaches in Hungary too, I read this from his travel diary. Are you still in contact with hungarians?

[heart]

Hello !
Tarthang Tulku says that lineage is always a manysided and complex issue in true reality. Various lineages are based on religious-political concensus or power struggle. If you want to the realize the equality of samsara and nirvana you can start meditating on the manner in which the lineage-lists are made. Keith Dowman says that he worked as translator and student at Dharma publishing in its early days. Padmasambhava figures prominently in the Nyingma Annals of Tarthang Tulku. Keith Dowman lists his sources for his lineage trees, among them are Jetsun Taranatha's Seven Instruction Lineages and the work of Dudjom Rinpoche, no mention of Tarthang Tulku. I find his style clear and elegant, his Masters of Mahamudra is most valuable, for example. He uses both sanskrit and tibetan sources for its background information. Keith Dowman teaches in Hungary too, I read this from his travel diary. Are you still in contact with hungarians?

Of course all lineages are complicated with many branches but that doesn't mean that the "religious-political lineage" is untrue. I see it as a kind of highlighting rather than an exact account of who gave who the empowerment's and instructions although at times it is very exact. Teachers such as Dilgo Khyentse took many lineages of rare teachings from humble monks in order to restore the lineages and keep them alive.

No, lost contact with with the Hungarians.

/magnus

[Aemilius]

Chögyam Trungpa had this great idea of "Dharma without credentials", but the fact is that Dharma is mostly or only about credentials. What we can say is that teaching and communication of Dharma take place, informally and with all elaborate formalities. Once it has happened, i.e. you have understood something, then it is very unlikely that you will ever acknowledge how and from whom you heard it. You will go to enormous lengths to create the image that you have heard it from some real credential source, some real credential authority. This is how the lineages come into being. The images of lineages do exist, I think, they have some use, they are not useless. Truth is beyond comprehension.
Then there are the evolutionary tendencies, which means that a particular ethnic population creates the lineages. This is to say that all or most teachings are put into the names of people of that particular ethnic lineage, or into the names of powerfull families within it. Population is an ethnic lineage. Dharma has another purpose than promoting a particular human population or a particular family-lineage, which is why the real Dharma-lineage loses to the evolutionary forces, and it is then replaced by a hereditary lineage.

[heart]

Chögyam Trungpa had this great idea of "Dharma without credentials", but the fact is that Dharma is mostly or only about credentials. What we can say is that teaching and communication of Dharma take place, informally and with all elaborate formalities. Once it has happened, i.e. you have understood something, then it is very unlikely that you will ever acknowledge how and from whom you heard it. You will go to enormous lengths to create the image that you have heard it from some real credential source, some real credential authority. This is how the lineages come into being. The images of lineages do exist, I think, they have some use, they are not useless. Truth is beyond comprehension.
Then there are the evolutionary tendencies, which means that a particular ethnic population creates the lineages. This is to say that all or most teachings are put into the names of people of that particular ethnic lineage, or into the names of powerfull families within it. Population is an ethnic lineage. Dharma has another purpose than promoting a particular human population or a particular family-lineage, which is why the real Dharma-lineage loses to the evolutionary forces, and it is then replaced by a hereditary lineage.

I do believe in lineages actually and my Guru has several lineages to uphold and one of them is his family lineage. If you read "Blazing Splendor" you will find out a lot about that particular lineage and how the transmission is done. I also found Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoches "Brilliant Moon" very touching. In my opinion there is definitely a transmission that is reflected by the official lineage and it is of great value. There might be people outside Tibet becoming lineage-holders in time, I heard there are a few already, but it is none of my business. I am just a simple practitioner. If only Tibetans can keep the lineage it is ok as long as it is genuine.

/magnus

[narraboth]

There should be some nice western practitioners.
But for lineage holders... well, there are many westerners claim that they are lineage holders though. There are several westerner tulku, and quite some of them have been challenged on many aspects. Tulku is not even near a lineage holder.

dharma need to develop and root in a suitable soil... dharma also change its appearance a bit (not the essence though) to fit the location. Chinese Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism look quite different, although they are all very mahayana.

In western world... I am not sure if the totally Tibetan way is the best. We have seen some failure or doubtful cases.