the matter of life and death

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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:02 am

Arhats, praytyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas are not fully enlighthened buddhas. And in Vajrayana, those buddhas on the 11th and 12th bhumis are considered not fully awakened.


Thanks for your reply. Just to clear up the confusion are saying that these Arhats, Praytyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas all revert back to ignorance after the destruction of the universe?
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:32 am

Ryoto wrote:
Arhats, praytyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas are not fully enlighthened buddhas. And in Vajrayana, those buddhas on the 11th and 12th bhumis are considered not fully awakened.


Thanks for your reply. Just to clear up the confusion are saying that these Arhats, Praytyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas all revert back to ignorance after the destruction of the universe?


Not necessarily, they revert to the basis.

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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:28 am

padma norbu wrote:whatever floats your boat...
It's not about floating ones boat. It's not about a warm, hazy and fuzzy feeling. It's about stark, clear, bright (almost to the point of painful) awareness. In some cases this may bring an even stronger and more raw sensual (as in, of the senses) experience of suffering, but also a more heightened experience of joy. I've heard it said that Avalokitesvaras head burst into a thousand pieces whilst contemplating the unending suffering of sentient beings, this though did not make him want to "pack up and leave". To "end it all". On the contrary, it fortified his intention to help them all.

Ego wants to "pack it in" at the first sign of difficulty, Bodhicitta wants to "slug it out" to the very end. Make your choice, face the music and quit whining.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:Not necessarily, they revert to the basis.


So this is what happens for them at the end of a Kalpa or Mahakalpa.... What about at the end of a Pralaya or Mahapralaya? Do Buddhas who have not reached full enlightenment fall into ignorance again? It depends on if they recognize the movement of the Five Lights as their own display when the Basis stirs, yes? Even if Buddhas who have not reached full enlightenment do not recognize the Five Lights as their own display at the end of a "Great Cosmic Night" ("The Bardo of Samsara and Nirvana"), wouldn't they still, even if only 'subconsciously', retain some 'memory' of the attainments they had acheived during the previous "Great Cosmic Day" ("Samsara and Nirvana turn their backs to one another")?
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:33 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Not necessarily, they revert to the basis.


So this is what happens for them at the end of a Kalpa or Mahakalpa.... What about at the end of a Pralaya or Mahapralaya?


They revert to the basis at the end of the mahakalpa. The dissolition of the universe, pralaya, happens between great eons.

Do Buddhas who have not reached full enlightenment fall into ignorance again?


No, there are no buddhas or sentient beings in the basis, there is no falling into ignorance per se, since there is no ignorance in the basis either. In any event, this type of cosmology is useless for most people's practice.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:51 pm

To clarify, the end of a Mahakalpa = the beginning of a Mahapralaya.

The end of a Mahapralaya = the beginning of a Mahakalpa.

You said that at the end of a Mahakalpa (beginning of a Mahapralaya), Arhats, Pratyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas below the 12th Bhumi, etc. revert to the Basis.

So my question is what about at the end of a Mahapralaya (beginning of a Mahakalpa)? This is when the Basis begins to stir right? In other words, the period of 'repose' between Eons is just that, a period of 'repose' (Mahapralaya), during which, as you've said, Buddhas who have not reached full Enlightenment revert to the Basis. And at the end of the Mahapralaya is when the Basis begins to stir signifying the beginning of a Mahakalpa (?)

The questions asked in my previous post are in the context of this understanding.

In other words, we've discussed what 'happens' with Buddhas who have not achieved full Enlightenment at the end of a Mahakalpa, but we haven't discussed what 'happens' (or what could 'happen') with them at the end of a Mahapralaya.

Although I'm sure you've written about this in at least one of the many, many ( ;) ) discussions here regarding the Basis.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Nighthawk » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:55 pm

Namdrol, probably a stupid question but can a fully enlightened Buddha ever revert back to ignorance if he wanted to?
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:04 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
padma norbu wrote:whatever floats your boat...
It's not about floating ones boat. It's not about a warm, hazy and fuzzy feeling. It's about stark, clear, bright (almost to the point of painful) awareness. In some cases this may bring an even stronger and more raw sensual (as in, of the senses) experience of suffering, but also a more heightened experience of joy. I've heard it said that Avalokitesvaras head burst into a thousand pieces whilst contemplating the unending suffering of sentient beings, this though did not make him want to "pack up and leave". To "end it all". On the contrary, it fortified his intention to help them all.

Ego wants to "pack it in" at the first sign of difficulty, Bodhicitta wants to "slug it out" to the very end. Make your choice, face the music and quit whining.
:namaste:


Eeeeeeesshh.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:51 pm

If it's the self-indulgent whining of a psychoanalytical session you want, I can (have been trained to) do that schtick too. But I get paid by the hour to listening to ego-centred "...it's all my mummies fault" crap.

In closing, have you considered getting elocution lessons? It'll help you get past the groans and wheezes which you utilise to express yourself.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:04 pm

Whatever floats your boat...
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:09 pm

Looking forward to Namdrol's response to Lhug-Pa and Ryoto's posts above.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:01 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:]And at the end of the Mahapralaya is when the Basis begins to stir signifying the beginning of a Mahakalpa (?)
.



Yes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If it's the self-indulgent whining of a psychoanalytical session you want, I can (have been trained to) do that schtick too. But I get paid by the hour to listening to ego-centred "...it's all my mummies fault" crap.

In closing, have you considered getting elocution lessons? It'll help you get past the groans and wheezes which you utilise to express yourself.
:namaste:


Do you work as a psychotherapist?
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:19 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:have you considered getting elocution lessons?


So that's what Toastmasters is. I've considered it before. Actually heard good things about Toastmasters. :cheers:
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby duckfiasco » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:46 pm

I just don't see how fine points of abstraction are of use to anybody but the most advanced practitioners. I know I'm not the only one who sometimes uses study as a way to get out of actual practice. It's so much more interesting to talk about the theoretical destruction of all the buddhas than to sit on your butt. I hope you're not doing the same thing, padma norbu!
Please take the above post with a grain of salt.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:19 pm

duckfiasco wrote:I just don't see how fine points of abstraction are of use to anybody but the most advanced practitioners. I know I'm not the only one who sometimes uses study as a way to get out of actual practice. It's so much more interesting to talk about the theoretical destruction of all the buddhas than to sit on your butt. I hope you're not doing the same thing, padma norbu!


I like to sit on my butt. It's an open dialog in which I haven't said much other than to basically agree with someone in a general way (my second post) and to point out something Namdrol discussed earlier, which he has come to clarify. Nobody is forcing anyone to be a part of this conversation.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Quiet Heart » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:50 am

:shrug:
Without reading through 5 pages of posts...can I ask why you originally got the idea that Nirvana (wherever or whatever that is) would "snuff out your life"?
Perhaps "free you from the cycle of birth and re-birth"...but that is not the same as "snuffing out your life", is it?
Now I have my own personal views on such things as "Nirvana" and "escaping fom the cycle of birth and rebirth", but that's not the point here.
So let's just say I'm very far from an expert on the matter...and anyhow my views are merely my personal views which very well may be wrong.
But thinking of "entering" some place or thing that is called "Nirvana"...and least of all... having that event "snuff out your life" ...seems rather strange to me.
Again, just my opinion.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:09 am

I absolutely never said that.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:15 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:As I think was mentioned in your other thread, when everything is destroyed at the end of a Kalpa, Mahamanvantara, etc., the Universe goes into a repose called Mahapralaya ("the Bardo of Samsara and Nirvana"); and from what I understand, at the end of a Mahapralaya when the Universe starts forming again, Buddhas who have attained complete Buddhahood in the previous Kalpa or Mahamanvantara will not fall into Samsara again unless they allow themselves to fall. This is how it's explained in Occultism, so I don't know if there are any Buddhist scriptures that either contradict or agree with this. And we've heard of those who only reach Buddhahood 'that reverts to the cause' and these are the ones who would have a higher chance of falling back into Samsara after the end of a Mahapralaya.


It doesn't really matter either way to me as far as making the whole thing more or less pointless. If there will always be samsaric beings and the compassion of the Buddhas, it basically is still an endless trap. You're either suffering in samsara or committed to helping those who are. Forever. There doesn't seem to be a third option. For the third or fourth time now, i'll say Buddhahood is the best option given the circumstances, but if given the option of complete and total annihilation of all trace of my existence, I would choose the latter just based on the pointlessness of it. A gentle reminder: if anyone does not like this discussion, they don't have to participate.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:36 am

It seems that it's not so much a matter of people not liking the discussion, it seems to be more a matter of you not liking the answers you are getting. Since your preferred option: "complete and total annihilation of all trace of my existence" in this situation (samsara) is not applicable, then it's not really an option is it? That only leaves the other two options: 1. continue suffering 2. gain liberation. For me (and for Buddhists in general, it seems) the choice is quite clear. So of what value is (what is the point of) the discusssion then? (ie what do you want to hear?)
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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