Two approaches.

[Dronma]

Much Ado About Nothing!
The whole topic has been mutated to a personal controversy between gad rgyangs and Namdrol.
It seems that gad rgyangs likes to preponderate against Namdrol's Dzogchen view, which is not good as intention at all.
Through study and contemplation, all answers will arise one day. If it is necessary....
Most of the times, it is not. Most of the times, it is only the display of ego-attachment.

By the way, what happened to White Lotus (Tom) who opened this topic and then disappeared?
Maybe his question has already been answered through all these posts....

[asunthatneversets]

Much Ado About Nothing!
The whole topic has been mutated to a personal controversy between gad rgyangs and Namdrol.

What seems like personal controversy on this thread is more like a resurfacing battle which originates from an epic and ancient war spanning eons of thread. We may never see the end of it, but know that you'll learn some interesting things and gain valuable insight while it goes on. It never sleeps and it cannot be stopped... Resistance is futile!

[Malcolm]

Much Ado About Nothing!
The whole topic has been mutated to a personal controversy between gad rgyangs and Namdrol.

What seems like personal controversy on this thread is more like a resurfacing battle which originates from an epic and ancient war spanning eons of thread. We may never see the end of it, but know that you'll learn some interesting things and gain valuable insight while it goes on. It never sleeps and it cannot be stopped... Resistance is futile!

No personal controversy.

[Paul]

Much Ado About Nothing!
The whole topic has been mutated to a personal controversy between gad rgyangs and Namdrol.
It seems that gad rgyangs likes to preponderate against Namdrol's Dzogchen view, which is not good as intention at all.
Through study and contemplation, all answers will arise one day. If it is necessary....
Most of the times, it is not. Most of the times, it is only the display of ego-attachment.

gad rgyangs - please just knock off this BASIS BASIS BASIS BASIS BASIS thing.

[Dronma]

Much Ado About Nothing!
The whole topic has been mutated to a personal controversy between gad rgyangs and Namdrol.

What seems like personal controversy on this thread is more like a resurfacing battle which originates from an epic and ancient war spanning eons of thread. We may never see the end of it, but know that you'll learn some interesting things and gain valuable insight while it goes on. It never sleeps and it cannot be stopped... Resistance is futile!

I am not interested in any resistance.
It is only so tiring to read again and again the same objections from people like gad rgyangs, who are like deaf and blind.
He sees what he likes to see, and hears what he likes to hear..... The rest do not exist for him!
Additionally he always talks as if he is in the state of Rigpa all the time!
What is the use of all this???

Then I really wonder about White Lotus!
Where is he? He is not interested in the topic which he personally opened?
He presented two approaches, and for my understanding his words had an obvious polemic against "Namkhai Norbu's school", which he finds similar to Theravada.

[gad rgyangs]

gad rgyangs - please just knock off this BASIS BASIS BASIS BASIS BASIS thing.

"knock off this BASIS thing" in a discussion of the Dzoghchen view. Thats a good one Paul, did you come up with that all by yourself?









(imagine Brando at the end of Apocalypse now, except he's wispering as he dies "the...comedy....the.....comedy")

[gad rgyangs]

Sentient beings are deluded about the display of the basis. When they cease to be so deluded, they are buddhas.

The basis never displays as anything other than the five lights.

so you're saying sentient beings and buddhas are the display of a different basis? you're saying that sentient beings and buddhas are not included in "all phenomena of samsara and nirvana"? you seem to be claiming there is the basis and its display, on the one hand, and then there's sentient beings and buddhas, but they have nothing to do with each other. if this were so, in what way would the basis be "our real nature"?

[Pero]

Then I really wonder about White Lotus!
Where is he? He is not interested in the topic which he personally opened?

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

[Dronma]

so you're saying sentient beings and buddhas are the display of a different basis? you're saying that sentient beings and buddhas are not included in "all phenomena of samsara and nirvana"? you seem to be claiming there is the basis and its display, on the one hand, and then there's sentient beings and buddhas, but they have nothing to do with each other. if this were so, in what way would the basis be "our real nature"?

You are very much fond of intellectual masturbation, Mr gad rgyangs! Isn't it?

[Dronma]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

I'm afraid, it is more complicated.
Don't forget that Jax (as Robert) also appeared in this thread....

[Pero]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

I'm afraid, it is more complicated.
Don't forget that Jax (as Robert) also appeared in this thread....

Hmm, I doubt they're connected. White Lotus has been around for a long time.

[gad rgyangs]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

You are very much fond of intellectual masturbation, Mr gad rgyangs! Isn't it?

you people are actually quite horrible. I try to ignore you as much as possible, but sometimes it genuinely astonishes me.

[Dronma]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

I'm afraid, it is more complicated.
Don't forget that Jax (as Robert) also appeared in this thread....

Hmm, I doubt they're connected. White Lotus has been around for a long time.

Maybe it is all coincidence, maybe not....
What I see is that those mistaken views from different people have common starting points and one target.
It is not good to examine closely one tree and loosing the whole forest.

[Dronma]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

You are very much fond of intellectual masturbation, Mr gad rgyangs! Isn't it?

you people are actually quite horrible. I try to ignore you as much as possible, but sometimes it genuinely astonishes me.

But it is intellectual masturbation, Mr gad rgyangs!
You are trying to find intellectual answers to what it is not intellectual at all !!!!

[Sönam]

Probably not since he seems to only be interested in his own delusions.

You are very much fond of intellectual masturbation, Mr gad rgyangs! Isn't it?

you people are actually quite horrible. I try to ignore you as much as possible, but sometimes it genuinely astonishes me.

You go round and round, completely impervious to what others say, including Namdrol that You love to discuss with while trying to ignore use ... May be is it that not having the capacity for Dzogchen.

Sönam

[asunthatneversets]

Let's try to stay constructive everyone... Were deviating into dangerous waters fast here!

[Malcolm]

Sentient beings are deluded about the display of the basis. When they cease to be so deluded, they are buddhas.

The basis never displays as anything other than the five lights.

so you're saying sentient beings and buddhas are the display of a different basis? you're saying that sentient beings and buddhas are not included in "all phenomena of samsara and nirvana"? you seem to be claiming there is the basis and its display, on the one hand, and then there's sentient beings and buddhas, but they have nothing to do with each other. if this were so, in what way would the basis be "our real nature"?

I like the way you systematically misrepresent what I am saying.

read what I said above, and you will see how much your statement purporting to represent what I said, does not represent it, much in the same way that a man with jaundice persistently sees white as yellow.

N

[Dronma]

Were deviating into dangerous waters fast here!

Better than splashing in the mud, asunthatneversets!

[Dronma]

the first approach could be summed up... just be. or according to lonchen Rabjam, normal awareness. this approach was held by the Zen master Bankei Zenshi. it is the idea that we are born with a complete buddha mind. this mind is the Inborn or Unborn mind of all buddhas. it is our everyday mind. for example you know you are reading this thread. that knowledge though simple is a function of buddha mind.

This reminds me a lot the "direct transmission" from Jax to his students!

[asunthatneversets]

Were deviating into dangerous waters fast here!

Better than splashing in the mud, asunthatneversets!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8KXx40hRA