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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:35 am 
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Haemin wrote:
Based on what do you assert this? I've seen no such problems as this. I'm a celibate monk and I don't feel jealous toward my non-celibate brothers and sisters in my own order or any other.


I assume you know about the incident when the Jogye Order monks took back temples by force from the married clergy after the Japanese left Korea.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
Most monks I know live very comfortable lifestyles and are free from most ordinary worries in life (such as food, shelter and clothing).


The Buddha taught that monastics should be free from material concerns and thus need the Four Requisites provided for them: food, clothing, medicine and shelter.

Haemin wrote:
Even in the Buddha's time, the monastic order moved from being a wholly itinerant one to a community of settled monks and nuns living in community. Eating twice a day at that time when many and perhaps most people were lucky to eat once a day meant that the Buddha's monks and nuns had a healthy diet. Literal begging was a culturally appropriate practice in India in the Buddha's time, but was dropped centuries ago in East Asia when Buddhism moved to China.


Huseng wrote:
This is because early on the state came to support institutionalized Buddhism. However, there were plenty of wandering vagrant monks who people helped and supported.


So, the Buddha was fine with both. He wandered and he stayed at monasteries.


Huseng wrote:
Having people support you is fine, but my concern is an underlying sense of entitlement, especially in the context of creating monastic institutions in the west. People think they can't become monks unless they have health insurance paid for them, for example.


I've never met anyone who thinks they can't ordain unless someone provides them with anything. As I believe I stated earlier, the Western monastics I know not only overwhelmingly provide for themselves (though some receive support), some also work to subsidize the temple or Dharma center where they volunteer and sometimes reside. I can't think of a single monk or nun I've met with a sense of entitlement.

Huseng wrote:
Look at the post-war history of the Korean Jogye order. The celibate monks formed a movement to eject or at least actively isolate the married priests.


That ended decades ago in S. Korea. Today the Taego and Jogye Order get along fine. I don't see that situation being recreated in the West.

Forgive me, but I need to bow out of these threads. I'm on a writing retreat for school for the rest of the week, and I've said all I have to say. Peace out.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Haemin wrote:
Based on what do you assert this? I've seen no such problems as this. I'm a celibate monk and I don't feel jealous toward my non-celibate brothers and sisters in my own order or any other.


I assume you know about the incident when the Jogye Order monks took back temples by force from the married clergy after the Japanese left Korea.


Please see my reply to Huseng.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
...how do you resolve this tension, short of joining the Order of Interbeing (to pick but one)?


Just a quick note:

I checked the Deer Park Monastery's website. In order to ordain in the Order of Interbeing you cannot have an "incurable disease or serious medical condition" (they even require a medical exam including a "blood check" prior to ordination), you cannot be older than 32 to join, and even their revised pratimoksha includes rules that keep bhikshuni subservient to bhikshu. As for homosexuality, I inquired via email and was told they don't talk about it as part of their practice of equanimity, but that ordinations would be handled on a case by case basis. If I understood this correctly, it would seem they have no policy either way, so sexual orientation may or may not be a factor in denying someone ordination.

These past few days I've tried to think of a truly inclusive ordination option for bhikshu and bhikshuni, but I can't come up with one. I don't think it exists. Then again, even if their was one, as I said earlier I couldn't pick an order based only on such rules. I would need to feel connected to both the teacher and the practice. I think people just assume that Buddhist institutions are inclusive because they don't generally post this information.

[url]http://deerparkmonastery.org/community/five-year-monastic-training-and-service-program
[/url]


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:09 pm 
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I know Fo Guang Shan performs marriages, but how about gay ones? I didn't stay long enough to find out. The Lotus Sutra states radical equality; all beings possess buddha-nature and equally have the capacity to become Buddhas but we delude ourselves if we think that after 2,000 years there is equality in Buddhist monastic institutions or temple sects. Men still rule. It's ridiculous, things need to change. Yes change, I never understood this passion for tradition about monastic vows when Buddhism is all about change. But then reading Bernard Faure really opened my eyes.
gassho
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:40 am 
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Quote:
These past few days I've tried to think of a truly inclusive ordination option for bhikshu and bhikshuni, but I can't come up with one. I don't think it exists.


Haemin, I am certain that you are aware of the Five Mountain Order of Zen. It's a very inclusive Order that is very modern and American, yet in the tradition of Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn.

http://www.fmzo.org

They ordain men and women with no celibacy requirements, age restrictions, and without any discrimination against gay and lesbian people or the physically challenged.

Over time we will see more orders like Five Mountain as the desire to ordain increases and people become more aware of the backwards policies of Asian traditions trying to take off in the West.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:48 am 
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jrzen wrote:
Quote:
These past few days I've tried to think of a truly inclusive ordination option for bhikshu and bhikshuni, but I can't come up with one. I don't think it exists.


Haemin, I am certain that you are aware of the Five Mountain Order of Zen. It's a very inclusive Order that is very modern and American, yet in the tradition of Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn.

http://www.fmzo.org

They ordain men and women with no celibacy requirements, age restrictions, and without any discrimination against gay and lesbian people or the physically challenged.

Over time we will see more orders like Five Mountain as the desire to ordain increases and people become more aware of the backwards policies of Asian traditions trying to take off in the West.


I am aware of them, but they ordain with bodhisattva precepts. It's essentially a lay-minister ordination. That doesn't work for someone who is or who wants to be a bhikshu or bhikshuni, though I think the diversity of options available in the West is generally a good thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:26 pm 
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I am aware of them, but they ordain with bodhisattva precepts. It's essentially a lay-minister ordination.


As I understand it, that is incorrect, since they offer ordination as a lay priest for men and women.

The International Order of Buddhist Ministers offers a lay minister ordination.

Interestingly the Bishop of the Overseas Parish, Jongmae Kenneth Park, claims that he has been a monk for many years. However after his ordination in the Chogye Order (a celibate order) he married and had a child that he raised with his wife to adulthood. And over the past few years (while still married to his wife) he was having an affair with an Austrian woman that had been ordained as Taego clergy and served as one of their distance-learning teachers.

That illicit affair ended about 1.5 years ago and she has since left the Taego Order since she was so disgusted by Jongmae Park and his behavior towards her and many others in the Overseas Parish. I am certain that you are aware of this Haemin.

So this is who is running the Taego Order in the West and claiming to enforce Vinaya rules (which he himself has been breaking for much of his life).

This ongoing attempt to defend and explain the Taego Order just serves to reveal all of it's inconsistencies and odd history. But I'm fine with it, so let the discussion continue.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:40 pm 
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jrzen wrote:
Quote:
I am aware of them, but they ordain with bodhisattva precepts. It's essentially a lay-minister ordination.


As I understand it, that is incorrect, since they offer ordination as a lay priest for men and women.

The International Order of Buddhist Ministers offers a lay minister ordination.

Interestingly the Bishop of the Overseas Parish, Jongmae Kenneth Park, claims that he has been a monk for many years. However after his ordination in the Chogye Order (a celibate order) he married and had a child that he raised with his wife to adulthood. And over the past few years (while still married to his wife) he was having an affair with an Austrian woman that had been ordained as Taego clergy and served as one of their distance-learning teachers.

That illicit affair ended about 1.5 years ago and she has since left the Taego Order since she was so disgusted by Jongmae Park and his behavior towards her and many others in the Overseas Parish. I am certain that you are aware of this Haemin.

So this is who is running the Taego Order in the West and claiming to enforce Vinaya rules (which he himself has been breaking for much of his life).

This ongoing attempt to defend and explain the Taego Order just serves to reveal all of it's inconsistencies and odd history. But I'm fine with it, so let the discussion continue.


I have no knowledge of any affair. Can you corroborate this accusation?

As for his marriage, the Jogye Order has allowed military chaplains to marry since the 1970's. It was all above board (in fact I've met other Jogye military chaplains who are married). The Bishop served in the S. Korean military in the 1970's and then came to the U.S. with his family. He has therefore not broken his vows.

For the last time, I'm not defending discrimination. I'm starting to think you just enjoy arguing. I'm done.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:54 am 
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For the last time, I'm not defending discrimination. I'm starting to think you just enjoy arguing. I'm done.


I did not think we were arguing, and I do not enjoy arguing. I do enjoy debating about these issues because they are very important. Buddhism has to adapt to the West and we are in a very interesting transition period when it comes to Zen in this country and how to make it work in a way that makes sense for our time and culture.

The Taego Order cannot work here as it stands with their backwards Korean cultural biases--it's already become quite a disaster, no one can argue with that.

These are necessary growing pains and I am fascinated by all of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Haemin wrote:

I have no knowledge of any affair. Can you corroborate this accusation?



From what I have gathered from those who were present, Ven. Park was involved in a romantic affair and it was not a secret or a scandal in the sangha in Europe. You may wish to reach out to Ven. Myo Hyon in Austria, still listed on the Taego Order website, if this is a particular interest.

we've touched on this issue before (see link below) and I'd prefer we not rehash it in public out of respect for the privacy of others.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=6152&start=20#p74045

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:01 pm 
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As for the International Order of Buddhist Ministers...
It is an organization that gives lay practitioners a more substantial way to participate. It was designed to be non-lineage based as people from many lineages apply. We research and contact the references and process the applicant so that they can have the title under the IOBM as 'Minister' which is not common in any of the traditional sects, lineages or schools... It can be a step to becoming a monk for those that are house holders, have families and want to participate in a more substantial and meaningful way. It was the intent of the IOBM that each minister would be under the guidance and 'in service' to a specific monastic and be able to hold a title that would show determination and commitment to their own 'lineage' or school. Many people that study Buddhist Philosophy do not have an opportunity to become ordained in any ONE sect and therefore the IOBM was designed. Not everyone can take all the vows, and not everyone should. I follow lineage but do not count on that or one master for my training. As an American Buddhist, (Ameriyana???) lol... We need a way to incorporate our cultures together. The ancient ways and training must be honored and respected, no doubt. We hope to offer a bridge from a very traditional concept to the 'American Culture' WITHOUT offering McBuddhism or anything like it... a slippery slope at times and a wobbly pedestal indeed...


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