Two approaches.

Malcolm
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Malcolm »

gad rgyangs wrote:there are not really two approaches, because it is by realizing the first that the second is fulfilled.

Longchenpa, in chos dbyings mdzod says "although Buddhahood is timeless, there is awakening to Buddhahood anew." Basically this means that you can enjoy the ride without sweating it. The awakening anew part is just for fun, the ground/you just playing hide and seek with itself/yourself.

Khenpo Jigphun points:

"Even though the omniscient guru [Longchenpa] may have stated "Samantabhadra was liberated on the basis", if there is liberation on the basis there be the fault of once again cycling in samsara. Therefore, it is necessary that liberation is on top of the appearance of the basis."

N
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:there are not really two approaches, because it is by realizing the first that the second is fulfilled.

Longchenpa, in chos dbyings mdzod says "although Buddhahood is timeless, there is awakening to Buddhahood anew." Basically this means that you can enjoy the ride without sweating it. The awakening anew part is just for fun, the ground/you just playing hide and seek with itself/yourself.

Khenpo Jigphun points:

"Even though the omniscient guru [Longchenpa] may have stated "Samantabhadra was liberated on the basis", if there is liberation on the basis there be the fault of once again cycling in samsara. Therefore, it is necessary that liberation is on top of the appearance of the basis."
cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism. not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Malcolm
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Malcolm »

gad rgyangs wrote:
cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism.

Please enjoy yourself then...even though it seems you have utterly missed the point that Dzogchen also just an attempt to solve the Buddhist question of how to stop cycling in samsara.

The answer to that question is not "Cycling in samsara? No problem, please continue...."

N
Malcolm
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Malcolm »

gad rgyangs wrote: not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?
What Khenpo Jigphun is saying is that there is no liberation in the basis, liberation and non-liberation are only valid questions from the point of view of the arising of basis.
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote: not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?
What Khenpo Jigphun is saying is that there is no liberation in the basis, liberation and non-liberation are only valid questions from the point of view of the arising of basis.
no argument there.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism.

Please enjoy yourself then...even though it seems you have utterly missed the point that Dzogchen also just an attempt to solve the Buddhist question of how to stop cycling in samsara.

The answer to that question is not "Cycling in samsara? No problem, please continue...."

N
you can stop cycling in samsara if thats your predilection, its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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Dronma
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Dronma »

gad rgyangs wrote: its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?
This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.
The sound of s i l e n c e.....
Jinzang
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Jinzang »

how could anything that arises be a mistake
The view that phenomena arise is certainly a mistake. As the Heart Sutra says, "not produced or stopped."

It seems that you've fallen into the category error of seeing phenomena as mistaken or not, when actually it's our view of phenomena that is mistaken or not. Views can be mistaken, phenomena no.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Jinzang wrote:
how could anything that arises be a mistake
The view that phenomena arise is certainly a mistake. As the Heart Sutra says, "not produced or stopped."

It seems that you've fallen into the category error of seeing phenomena as mistaken or not, when actually it's our view of phenomena that is mistaken or not. Views can be mistaken, phenomena no.
a view is a mental phenomena.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote: its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?
This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.
does this mean you are coming out as a Manichaen? I just want you to know I fully support your decision, and I promise I will not set up a webcam in your bedroom.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Jinzang
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Jinzang »

a view is a mental phenomena
A view is a proposition and not a phenomenon, either mental or physical.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Jinzang wrote:
a view is a mental phenomena
A view is a proposition and not a phenomenon, either mental or physical.
what then do you consider a mental phenomena?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Jinzang
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Jinzang »

They are listed in the abhidharma.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Jinzang wrote:They are listed in the abhidharma.
then surely you know that among the 51 mental factors of the samskara skandha is "erroneous views" (lta-ba nyon-mongs can). These are considered dharmas, or "phenomena".

can we get back to the topic now?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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Dronma
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Dronma »

gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote: its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?
This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.
does this mean you are coming out as a Manichaen? I just want you to know I fully support your decision, and I promise I will not set up a webcam in your bedroom.
Neither traps of Monism nor of Manicheism have any relation with Dzogchen!
But you did not reply to anyone of my questions...
Do you have personal experience (directly or indirectly) of pain, fear, hunger, illness or paranoia?
Probably not, that's why you claim arrogantly that samsara is fine.

In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........
The sound of s i l e n c e.....
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Dronma wrote: In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]
exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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Dronma
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Dronma »

gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote: In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........
exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground
What a naive paradigm!
Hmm... For you, samsara is like ice cream?
And not a word about the TWO PATHS and TWO RESULTS.... :tongue:
The sound of s i l e n c e.....
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote: In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........
exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground
What a naive paradigm!
Hmm... For you, samsara is like ice cream?
And not a word about the TWO PATHS and TWO RESULTS.... :tongue:
ro chig
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote: In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]
exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground
And yet still so many suffer unbearably--even as you type those words-- and some have completely and permanently undone suffering.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Post by gad rgyangs »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote: In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]
exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground
And yet still so many suffer unbearably--even as you type those words-- and some have completely and permanently undone suffering.
do you find a contradiction somewhere?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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