Two approaches.

White Lotus
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Two approaches.

Postby White Lotus » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:53 pm

1. Patrul Rinpoche to Nyoshul Lungtok:
''Theres really nothing to it''
''Do you see the stars in the sky?''
''Do you hear the dogs barking in the Dzogchen monastery?''
''Do you hear what i am saying to you?''
''Well, the nature of Dzogchen is this, simply this.''

the first approach could be summed up... just be. or according to lonchen Rabjam, normal awareness. this approach was held by the Zen master Bankei Zenshi. it is the idea that we are born with a complete buddha mind. this mind is the Inborn or Unborn mind of all buddhas. it is our everyday mind. for example you know you are reading this thread. that knowledge though simple is a function of buddha mind.

2. in this Dzogchen formum there is a rejection of the first approach, in favour of the second approach held by Namkhai Norbu's school and the lineage of Hui Neng, the 6th Patriarch of Zen (''See your nature and become a buddha!''). the second approach insists that one must see the true nature of mind or emptiness or energy. this second approach emphasises non duality. the second approach is also held by Therevada... to see dhamma nature.

so... we have these two approaches and should be aware that they cannot be reconciled. there have been great masters from many lineages who have emphasised one over the other.

the great question will always remain... is it already naturally complete? Or do we have to see it?
being or seeing. this is an argument between natural being and prajna seeing/wisdom. it crops up time and again in buddhism, not just these threads.

hope this is helpful.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Malcolm » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:02 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:10 pm

By the way, What is the difference between 1 (patrul rinpoche) and 2 (Namkai Norbu, zen, etc. )

I don't see the real difference from the description.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Sönam
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Sönam » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:14 pm

The "normal awareness" of Longchen Rabjam is not so normal for most of us ... like "normal mind" for exemple.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Jinzang
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Jinzang » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:38 pm

The nub of the issue is that although buddha mind is ordinary mind (tha mal gyi shes pa), we don't see ordinary mind because of our obscurations. Hence the many expedient means to remove them. In the sense that seeing ordinary mind is quite rare, what is called ordinary is extraordinary.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!"

trevor
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby trevor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:42 pm


krodha
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby krodha » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:48 pm


trevor
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby trevor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:35 pm


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Paul
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Paul » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:17 pm

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

krodha
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby krodha » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:43 pm


Dronma
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:10 pm

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

trevor
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby trevor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:13 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Malcolm » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:22 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Dronma
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Two approaches.

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:35 pm

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

krodha
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby krodha » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:47 pm


krodha
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby krodha » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:52 pm


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Sönam
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby Sönam » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:01 pm

many confuse Dzogchen with Yogachara ... they "think" they get it!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Dronma
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Two approaches.

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:07 pm

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

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gad rgyangs
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:39 pm

there are not really two approaches, because it is by realizing the first that the second is fulfilled.

Longchenpa, in chos dbyings mdzod says "although Buddhahood is timeless, there is awakening to Buddhahood anew." Basically this means that you can enjoy the ride without sweating it. The awakening anew part is just for fun, the ground/you just playing hide and seek with itself/yourself.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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heart
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Re: Two approaches.

Postby heart » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:01 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)


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