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 Post subject: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Hi everybody,

I have been working on the Paramita effort and normally I have no problem applying it to my Dharma practice but when it comes to such things like school and working I find it difficult sometimes to arouse proper energy perhaps because I don't really find it too beneficial.

I am wondering what some of your thoughts and suggestions might be on this?

Thank you.

S


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:50 pm 
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The alternative of not practising is continued existence in samsara which is suffering. It won't get better unless you put in effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Should say; through meditation, through applying dharma in our life, one can taste some lighter feeling. Then joy is giving power.
The power of diligence by realizing; the difficult coarse and heavy digging in troubles need not at all! The painful struggling by grasping to wordly concerns is our created theatre only.
All beings around us suffer, to at least not act harmfully and honestly from the heart practice for them all without the three concepts (subject, object, action), to follow examples of compassionate ones, like being a medicine for all. What a joyful strenght!

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:36 pm 
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:namaste: are you polishing a brick? whats the use of polishing. the brick is already a perfect brick.

just naturally be. meditate when you meditate. relax when you relax. you are already perfectly so.

theres nothing to realize, realizing nothing is not necessary. you are perfectly so.

in enlightenment, there is no flavour, no tasting, no experience, nothing special.

forgetting your realization is natural. awakenings come and go, rise and fall.

studying at the computer is enlightenment, meditation is enlightenment, eating is enlightenment, sleeping is enlightenment, working in a normal or any job is enlightenment. enlightenment is all things since there is no state called perfective enlightenment. even the spots on your face are perfect enlightenment. there is not a thing that is not perfect enlightenment, this is since there is no state called perfect enlightenment.

if there was a state called perfect enlightenment, it would then not be perfect enlightenment, since it would be a state and all states are subject to coming and going. if i say "i am enlightened", that is a state, and subject to coming and going, experiencing and then forgetting. there is no enlightenment. it cannot be said in enlightenment that i am enlightened, except in that everything is enlightened.

emptiness is not, enlightenment is not. in being not... it is. in being absolutely no thing it represents absolutely every thing. in no dharma is found all dharma. even delusion is perfect enlightenment. there is no need to know that we are enlightened or deluded, there is no difference.

in zen they sometimes say... 'this is it'.

practice is it, polish the mirror as much as you like. non practice is it, why polish a brick? be free. dont burden yourself with unpleasant practices, practice with freedom and no effort (effortlessness). trying too hard you might damage your practice. treat your practice like a little green plant, be gentle with it, water it and give it sunhsine, but dont try to force it to grow. that will only kill it or stunt its growth.

best wishes, White Lotus.

just relax.
wait and you will see.
seek and you will find.

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:32 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
:namaste: are you polishing a brick? whats the use of polishing. the brick is already a perfect brick.

just naturally be. meditate when you meditate. relax when you relax. you are already perfectly so.

theres nothing to realize, realizing nothing is not necessary. you are perfectly so.

in enlightenment, there is no flavour, no tasting, no experience, nothing special.

forgetting your realization is natural. awakenings come and go, rise and fall.


practice is it, polish the mirror as much as you like. non practice is it, why polish a brick? be free. dont burden yourself with unpleasant practices, practice with freedom and no effort (effortlessness). trying too hard you might damage your practice. treat your practice like a little green plant, be gentle with it, water it and give it sunhsine, but dont try to force it to grow. that will only kill it or stunt its growth.

best wishes, White Lotus.

just relax.
wait and you will see.
seek and you will find.


Good stuff :) This is currently a dilemma for me. It seems a fine line between disillusionment and letting be, acceptance and still applying effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:42 pm 
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:namaste: your thinking is just so.
your practice is just so.
your disillusion is just so.
all is enlightenment,
all is completely enlightened dharma body.
why worry? why not worry? just so.

what you will do will be just so,
what you are is just so.
so.

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:46 am 
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Huseng wrote:
The alternative of not practising is continued existence in samsara which is suffering. It won't get better unless you put in effort.

:good:


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:01 pm 
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:namaste: whether or not you know it... everything you do is perfect practice, just as it is. we try to avoid things like anger and hatred because they cause us and others pain... but even pain is complete enlightenment. just as it is. so.

drinking water is perfect practice.
thinking about the political situation is perfect practice,
not thinking politics is perfect practice.
walking is perfect practice.
having an ice cream is full unbridled enlightenment.

such is the wondrous nature of 'this' mind... how could what we do ever not be practice. the functioning of any body is a miracle, this is the wondrous functioning of the mind in the apparently mundane.

thich Nat Hahn said... it is not walking on water that i see as the miracle, it is rather that we walk on earth at all that is the miracle. (paraphrase).

best wishes, White Lotus.

walk on earth and you
are the miracle of enlightenment.

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Thank you for your thoughts and insight :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:06 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
:namaste: whether or not you know it... everything you do is perfect practice, just as it is. we try to avoid things like anger and hatred because they cause us and others pain... but even pain is complete enlightenment. just as it is. so.


By that reasoning murdering somebody could be called complete enlightenment.

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:36 pm 
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:namaste: by that reasoning even a bullet is completely enlightened. every spot, broken leg, cold, cruel word, misunderstanding, conflict and upset is pure perfect enlightenment. but that does not mean that we involve ourselves in such behaviour, because to do so would be foolish. it would bring causes and consequences that would cause us and others to suffer unnecessarily. nonetheless, all suffering is perfectly enlightened.

please note Huseng that i may be utterly wrong and you will form your own opinion of what is, but it just seems to me that ultimately there is no dualism of right and wrong, good and bad, kind and cruel, but rather that all these things depend on each other for what is.

best wishes, White Lotus.

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Is seems to me that this thread is in sore need of a definition of right effort as given in the sutras. I don't have the resources to do that, maybe Retro does?

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:36 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
:namaste: by that reasoning even a bullet is completely enlightened. every spot, broken leg, cold, cruel word, misunderstanding, conflict and upset is pure perfect enlightenment. but that does not mean that we involve ourselves in such behaviour, because to do so would be foolish. it would bring causes and consequences that would cause us and others to suffer unnecessarily. nonetheless, all suffering is perfectly enlightened.

please note Huseng that i may be utterly wrong and you will form your own opinion of what is, but it just seems to me that ultimately there is no dualism of right and wrong, good and bad, kind and cruel, but rather that all these things depend on each other for what is.

best wishes, White Lotus.


Your reasoning could easily lead people to form a cult and murder countless people. You profess no belief in right and wrong or good and evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:51 pm 
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From what I could come up with I think that the actual motivation for working would be a big help just as it is in spiritual practice.

Still sometimes I get kind of bored doing the work though. For example, I am finishing up my last semester at school and I really have to spend a lot of time studying and its gotten to the point where it is becoming tedious because I know that once the semester is over I'm just going to forget most of the information anyway and all the time spent studying will just have not really helped that much. I would much rather just learn the Dharma where I know it is something that I like and is very useful.

Anyway, just some thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:36 pm 
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:namaste:

Noble Huseng,

fundamentally all is perfect enlightenment.

do not ignore cause and effect or you become a monster.

be good. I will try to be as well.

best wishes, White Lotus.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:46 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
:namaste:

Noble Huseng,

fundamentally all is perfect enlightenment.

do not ignore cause and effect or you become a monster.

be good. I will try to be as well.

best wishes, White Lotus.


That's just it -- you profess that all is perfect enlightenment which would include murder, rape and even the holocaust.

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:22 pm 
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sangyey wrote:
...and its gotten to the point where it is becoming tedious because I know that once the semester is over I'm just going to forget most of the information anyway and all the time spent studying will just have not really helped that much.


This is a mostly false idea ingrained in many (maybe most) cultures. I was a math major and never unfortunately got a real math position but I used real math all the time. I have forgotten some things like complex variables but actually when I read math I pick it up again quite quickly (and basic math, calculus and linear algebra, and much of numerical analysis and esp. symbolic logic - I have never forgotten). Most of what I learned in college I never forgot and just expanded on through grad school. The idea that people will forget such important things is generally a pernicious myth.

Now the other side of that is that one will not continue learning and that is also false in the people I know.

Secular learning is not valueless. We can use this knowledge to create a new, positive, peaceful Dharmic world or at a minimum to alleviate suffering as we encounter it.

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
That's just it -- you profess that all is perfect enlightenment which would include murder, rape and even the holocaust.


These in fact are the issues raised by Brian Victoria in "Zen at War" and the misinterpretation (or misapplication) of Japanese Zen (primarily but not exclusively) beginning in the Meiji and esp. the Militarist periods.

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:17 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
:namaste: whether or not you know it... everything you do is perfect practice, just as it is. we try to avoid things like anger and hatred because they cause us and others pain... but even pain is complete enlightenment. just as it is. so.

drinking water is perfect practice.
thinking about the political situation is perfect practice,
not thinking politics is perfect practice.
walking is perfect practice.
having an ice cream is full unbridled enlightenment.


That sounds so nice and simple, however the fact is if you are in your thinking out of habit and not keeping the moment clear, then none of this is any kind of practice, much less "perfect practice". Holding this type of lackadaisical view toward practice can be dangerous, as Huseng points out, or is at least as good as not practicing at all.

The tricky part is, practicing does not necessarily change what you do in everyday life, but how and why you do it.

Bodhidharma said;

"Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware. Responding, arching your brows, blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it's not Zen."


Put all this about "perfect practice" and "enlightenment" down. Don't make enlightenment. Don't make Buddha. Don't make anything. Then just drink water, just arch your brows, just help others...

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Applying Effort
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:07 pm 
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:namaste:

Quote:
Put all this about "perfect practice" and "enlightenment" down. Don't make enlightenment. Don't make Buddha. Don't make anything. Then just drink water, just arch your brows, just help others...


:oops: having a cup of tea is having a cup of tea... no mention of enlightenment anymore.

best wishes, White Lotus.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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