"...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

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padma norbu
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"...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Space or "Dakini's paradise" is how Keith Dowman translated it in Masters of Mahamudra.

Why do I get the feeling that the way liberation or enlightenment are described are not really what it sounds like? Yes, there is rainbow body (which is truly perplexing based on all the other kinds of "enlightenment" which appear to be more or less just a change of mental attitude/understanding), but then there is another kind of "liberating into space" which is just like releasing the grasp of the mind. Where to release the grasp? Into space, where else? There really is no place else.

I'm thinking in particular of one of the 84 tales in Keith Dowman's above-mentioned book toward the end where a woman drops a pot and to observers appears to stare blankly for long enough for someone to basically say, "Hey, what are you doing?" Then, she says something about samsara and death in poetic language using the broken pot as a metaphor and then she liberates into space. It might have said she flies off into the sky, actually. I think either expression means the same thing.

Maybe my revised understanding of "sky-goer" (dakini) has helped me somewhat in thinking along these lines. I used to think a sky dancer was "I-don't-know-what," really, but I had some vague ideas, anyway, about them being somehow female nirmanakaya beings (whatever that is). In a teaching by Chagdud Tulku about Dakini Wisdom, I learned that this is really pretty figurative language. A sky dancer isn't some being that dances around in the sky. Sky means "space" and not just empty space, but all of space. So, "sky dancer" or "sky goer" is just a reference to the manifestations arising in space. They are female because concepts, forms and emotions are considered "female" while the penetrating awareness is considered "male." I suppose this makes sense because concepts, forms and emotions are like mothers pregnant with a baby awareness inside in the same way we refer to reality as "mother nature" because she births and nurtures all us babies.

So, this brings me to thoughts about the age-old question people ask: "where do we go when we become enlightened?" The answer that comes back is usually "nowhere." So... liberating into "dakini's paradise" = space = nowhere. Well, I'm nowhere already; seems like I'm somewhere until I examine the groundlessness of my experience.

It's hard to believe a view can be stabilized to a point beyond this understanding... and to a point where suddenly we find we have various siddhis and can maybe even decompose into rainbow light if we want. HENH!? <- that's a very nasal "huh?!"
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby krodha » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:55 pm


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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:40 am

lol, 126 view and 1 response. Thank you for your considered response, asunthatneversets.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Dronma » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:54 am

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:31 am

You know what I think is happening? The great majority of people who entered this thread were liberated into space by the end of post #1. I'm going have to go back and read more carefully.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:15 am

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:32 am

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:46 am

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:11 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:26 pm

Adamantine, I'm having a real difficulty composing a reply to you at the moment. I just don't understand where the communication problem is happening based on what I've written. Assuming you've read it all, I don't see what the problem could be. What's your understanding of Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri? And of rupakaya? What is Wisdom and what is Wisdom Display?

I've cited other sources beyond the "one line from Keith Dowman,' but you didn't seem to notice. So, I'm coming at this from a different angle by eliciting responses from you now rather than the opposite approach, which would be a lengthy response full of sources, links and quotes which will become a thoroughly derailing waste of time.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:43 pm

Well, this is interesting, I went back and reread the introduction and got a little more clarity:

"All of the siddhas who attained mahamudra-siddhi, the active expression of which has been discussed above [where Dowman talks at some length about mahamudra vs. madness], "finally attained ultimate liberation in the Dakini's Paradise." In some legends however, the final line stating that the siddha attained the Dakini's Paradise "in his own body" introduces some ambiguity. It can be inferred that his body dissolved into light and his demise (parinirvana) was a magical spiralling into the empyreum. Alternatively, the statement could be a recapitulation of his life since his enlightenment; in his ultimate mystical experience he attained the pure land where his existence was felt to be a constant dance with Dakinis, who represent the empty awareness of his pleasure. Further, the phrase rendered as "Dakini's Paradise" is ambiguous in itself and could be translated simply as "sky" or "space." For the Mahasidha Padmasambhava, the Dakini's Paradise was his homeland of Oryen, which was also conceived as a Dharmakaya Buddhafield. The majority of the siddhas who did not attain the Dakini's Paraidise were those who only accomplished mundane siddhis and, attaining immortality, or extraordinary longevity, remained on earth working for humanity. "

So, yes, there is 2 meanings (or, at least, Dowman suspects as much): rainbow body or glimpsing the pure realm. Makes sense. Although I really still don't understand why siddhis are a result of any practice, but whatever... PHEW! I'm sure glad that's over with.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Adamantine
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:47 pm

booooring.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Adamantine
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:11 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:14 pm

^ I just did that to drive you nuts since you sounded like you were getting huffy.

Chagdud Tulku's "Dakini Wisdom" teaching is $5 on DVD from Chagdud Gonpa. He says all of phenomena, which is energy after all, is the dakini.

And he says it again, too, in book form.
From Gates To Buddhist Practice: "The late Nyingma master, Chagdud Tulku, explained, "Dakini refers to the feminine principle of wisdom that manifests in female form to benefit beings. We say the lama's mind is the dakini because it embodies the inseparability of emptiness and wisdom, the absolute dakini. This absolute nature, dharmakaya, manifests as the subtle display of the samboghakaya dakini and the nirmanakhaya***, or physical form of great female realization holders in order to benefit beings." (Gates to Buddhist Practice 243) http://www.khandro.net/dakini_khandro.htm

***why do you think I asked you about Samantabhadra/dri and Rupakaya before? You didn't answer.

This jibes with Downman's opening paragraph: "Thus the totality of reality as Awareness can be represented by the Dakini alone" and subsequent paragraphs I quoted "Look into the mirror of your mind, mahamudra, the mysterious home of the Dakini. Here the mirror of mind is the cognitive aspect of the universal plenum of non-dual reality, and the Dakini is the flux of insubstantial reflection in the mirror." ...plus the bit about the meaning of dakini being intentionally obscured and esoteric.

This jibes with analysis of the seven-line prayer:
Common meaning of line 5 is "surrounded by a retinue of dakinis" and some other, deeper meanings of this line are:
"This wisdom is with (kor) its numerous manifestative powers (mangpo) emanating (dro) in the ultimate sphere (kha) as attributes (khortu)."
and
"Then the light of self-arisen wisdom emanates (kor) many (mangpo) rays and thig-les as its manifesting power (rTsal) (khortu) moving about in space (khadro)."

Both male and female are referred to as feminine "dakini," though there is also a term for the male-specific counterpart.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:32 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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padma norbu
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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:39 pm

Yes, there is something you're missing there. Yab-Yum.

You go your way and I'll go mine. :) Already answered my own question a few posts ago. And I noticed you never answered my questions. I guess this is a one-way street... :shrug:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

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Re: "...and after 12 years, he was liberated into space."

Postby Adamantine » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:43 pm

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


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