2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

[Jinzang]

I was around as the whole unfortunate mess unfolded and what was said immediately after his death was that the Karmapa always leaves a prediction letter saying where he will be reborn and that the four "heart sons" would jointly act as regents until the next Karmapa was found and would use the prediction letter to locate him. How things unfolded, everyone here knows.

[Karinos]

a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.

[gregkavarnos]

The statue of the 16th Karmapa behind him freaked me out there for a second!

[Dhondrub]

a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.

karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi

[Caz]

You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?

[Karinos]

karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi

indeed

[Dhondrub]

karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi

indeed

[AlexanderS]

You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?

I don't think, I have. Where can I see them?

-Alex

[Karinos]

http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=5

I like this - but it's not new one -
[url]http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=11&tx_ttnews[backPid]=5&cHash=629a44bbc1[/url]

[Kilaya.]

Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.

[kirtu]

Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt

[heart]

[quote="kirtu"]Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus

[kirtu]

Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, superfast ....

Kirt

[kirtu]

Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus

Oh I accidentally misquoted the Sharmapa - he thinks few people, Western or Asian, are really ready for Vajrayana and that the sutric Bodhisattvayana with essentially sutric meditation (from the Samadhiraja Sutra, so it sounds like the so-called Kagyu sutric Mahamudra) is best for most people these days.

Anyway, keeping an open mind ....

Kirt

[heart]

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, superfast ....

Kirt

I heard the Shamarpa was a very gifted Dzogchen practitioner when he was young and have a great capacity for giving direct introduction so the Mahayana he is suggesting might not be so slow. To me it sounds like Sutra Mahamudra combined with compassion and devotion, it could actually be quite fast.

/magnus

[AlexanderS]

Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.

Very nice video, thank you very much.

[sherabpa]

Sherabpa,

Why exactly do you say that there can't be two Karmapas? The famous Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo Rinpoche had at least five tulkus. There are numerous other lines of tulkus where there are more than one. Another example are the three lines of Pema Lingpa tulkus: Body, Speech, and Mind.
I'd just like to know your reasoning for saying that, when it comes of the Karmapa, there can be only one valid tulku. Thanks.

Also, Tulku Urgyen said there could be two Karmapa's, already from the beginning.

/magnus

When I say there is only one Karmapa, this as a matter of fact, rather than a statement of what is possible. I don't mean to deny there could be two Karmapas. This is possible - when it comes to Karmapa, many amazing things are possible. I do not say 'there can be only one'. What I mean is, in the particular case of Orgyen Thinley Dorje and Thinley Thaye Dorje, one of them is a fake. It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.

And the reason I think one of them is fake is that nobody - neither Orgyen Thinley nor Thinley Thaye, nor their gurus, not any high Kagyu gurus of the past, say that both of them are Karmapa. If these high lamas changed their views and said there were two Karmapas, that would change things. But to say there are two Karmapas is to contradict what all the high lamas say. On what grounds can someone ordinary like me make such an extraordinary claim?

We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.

[Malcolm]

It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.

Politics.

[honestdboy]

Tulku Urgyen wanted both Karmapas to be respected. Beru Khyentse Rinpoche strongly supports both Karmapas. The great Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche does, too. I respect their efforts at bringing the Kagyu family back together. I imagine some of the different branches of the Kagyu lineage have their origins in similar disagreements. I have studied with lamas on both sides of this issue and will continue to do so. I wish the two Karmapas could meet and talk things out in private.

[gregkavarnos]

We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.

Your reasoning is completely flawed. If both claimants have authentic Kagyu Lamas that say they are Karmapa then neither Karmapa is fake and the "true" Karmapa for each individual is based on which "high lama" they happen to agree with. Anyway you are also wrong on another count: there are "high lama" that believe both of the candidates are authentic, Beru Khyentse (long life to him!) is one of the supporters of this position.