Rebirth as a Rudra

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Rebirth as a Rudra

Postby CapNCrunch » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:57 am

Thread split from: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

incubated Rudra


What does this mean? Serious question - I have no idea. I'm familiar w/ the word Rudra, but there must be a specific context or something I'm missing.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mr. G » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:32 am

CapNCrunch wrote:
incubated Rudra


What does this mean? Serious question - I have no idea. I'm familiar w/ the word Rudra, but there must be a specific context or something I'm missing.


In a sense it means if one has a huge ego and practices Dzogchen without a stable view, one is reborn a Rudra.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:53 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
incubated Rudra


What does this mean? Serious question - I have no idea. I'm familiar w/ the word Rudra, but there must be a specific context or something I'm missing.


Please take a look at the story of Rudra in Khenpo Namdrol's "The Practice of Vajrakilaya".

Hmmm ... the whole story is not available on the Google Books review.

Once upon a time there was a man named Black Liberation who along with his servant were able to take secret tantric teaching. Overtime, Black Liberation severely misunderstood the teachings thinking that he could actually do anything that he wanted to do. Black Liberation devolved into
acting in an extremely negative manner and practiced fierce mantra in order to develop power. His servant told him that his actions and understanding were wrong. So they went to the master and asked him to decide. The master said that Black Liberation's understanding was wrong and that the servant's was right. Black Liberation then killed them both and engaged in even more violent and depraved actions. Eventually the Buddha's had to stop Black Liberation and that is the story of the origin of Vajrakilaya.

So what was Black Liberation's major mistake? As I remember the story Black Liberation thought that he had attained a degree of enlightenment and that he no long was able to generate karma.

Khandro.net has some more details ...

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:58 pm

Mr. G wrote:
CapNCrunch wrote:
incubated Rudra


What does this mean? Serious question - I have no idea. I'm familiar w/ the word Rudra, but there must be a specific context or something I'm missing.


In a sense it means if one has a huge ego and practices Dzogchen without a stable view, one is reborn a Rudra.


^ Exactly! :namaste:

I quote some excerpts from the book: "The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa" by Shambhala Publications, that may be useful to new people.

From the Glossary of the book:

Rudra (Skt.): Originally a Hindu deity, an emanation of Shiva. In the vajrayana, Rudra is the personification of the destructive principle of ultimate ego. According to tradition, Rudra was originally a tantric student who perverted the teachings and killed his guru. He was thus transformed into Rudra, the embodiment of egohood, the complete opposite of buddhahood.

Then, the story of the Rudra through a dialogue between Chögyam Trungpa and one of his students:
Chögyam Trungpa: ....There is the story of Rudra, one of the first persons to go to vajra Hell. He and a fellow student, a dharma brother, were studying with the same master. They had a disagreement about how to interpret the master’s instructions. They were taking opposite extremes in carrying out their practice, and each of them was sure that he was right. They decided to go to the teacher and ask for his comment. When the teacher told Rudra that he was wrong, Rudra became so angry that he drew his sword and killed his teacher on the spot. Then he ended up in vajra hell. It is a kind of alienation.
Student: Is going to vajra hell the equivalent of attaining egohood, or are two different things?
Chögyam Trungpa: Vajra hell is not quite complete egohood. It’s still part of the journey. But when you come out of vajra hell without any realization, then you attain the real egohood, which is the state of Rudra. You turn yourself into a demon.
Student: So, you are not in vajra hell when you attain egohood.
Chögyam Trungpa: No, egohood seems to be quite difficult to attain. As difficult as enlightenment. Doing a really good job on it is very difficult.

A little explanation about the wrathful deities:
Another aspect of the wrathful deities is that they have adopted the raiment of the Rudra of ego. They subjugate the Rudra of ego and use his clothing. This means not abandoning the samsaric world as something bad, but rather wearing it as an ornament.

And finally, a more detailed explanation about the 3 aspects of Rudra:
In the tantric tradition, ego or confusion or ignorance is personified as Rudra. All the tantric traditions of Buddhism are concerned with the taming of Rudra, the Rudra of ego. The Rudra principle is divided, especially in the atiyoga tradition, into the ego of the body, the ego of the speech, and the ego of the mind. This means the fixation or appropriation of the elements of body, speech and mind by the ego in relation to its security or expansion. In speaking of the fixation of the body, we are not referring to purely physical attachment – lust, let’s say – as a purely physical matter. We are talking about the mind-body situation, the body aspect of our mind, the solidity aspect of it which needs constant feeding, reinforcement. It needs continual reassurance that it is solid. That is the Rudra of the body.
The Rudra of speech is the fixation of the element which is related with both the body and the mind but at the same time is uncertain which. This is fickleness or wavering quality, uncertain whether one’s foundation is the fixed aspect of the body – the physical level of the textures and colors of life – or perhaps the emotional situation of whether to love or to hate. This uncertain wavering back and forth, this fickleness quality, is speech (or mantra, if you prefer), the voice. The fixation of this is the Rudra of speech.
The Rudra of mind is fundamentally believing that, if a higher state of spiritual development is to be attained, it has to be manufactured rather than uncovered. Rangjung Dorje, a great teacher of the Kagyü tradition, in his commentary of the Hevajra Tantra, says that the ultimate materialism is believing that Buddha nature can be manufactured by mental effort, spiritual gymnastics. So that is psychological and spiritual materialism – the Rudra of the mind.
………………
We can see from this brief look that the practice of tantra is not easy. The student has to begin at the beginning. He has to acquire an understanding of the principle of taming the mind. Understanding of the Rudra principle brings egolessness or Rudra-lessness.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:19 pm

what if you're a closed-minded petty intolerant self righteous fundamentalist and you practice dzogchen, what are you reborn as then?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:02 am

gad rgyangs wrote:what if you're a closed-minded petty intolerant self righteous fundamentalist and you practice dzogchen, what are you reborn as then?


Rush Limbaugh
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mr. G » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:05 am

gad rgyangs wrote:what if you're a closed-minded petty intolerant self righteous fundamentalist and you practice dzogchen, what are you reborn as then?


Grimace

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Rebirth as a Rudra

Postby Mr. G » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:12 pm

Off Topic Posts split: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Rebirth as a Rudra

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 pm

Since a new thread has been created about Rudra, I shall post also an excerpt from the book "The practice of Vajrakilaya: oral teachings" By Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche, Snow Lion Publications.

In general, a rudra focuses specifically on trying to harm those who are practicing the unsurpassed secret mantra; they are his main targets. Now, the kind of beings that create obstacles for the teachings and practitioners of the secret mantrayāna are usually called damsi, and are basically those who have, in the past, allowed their tantric samayas to deteriorate. The foremost among these are the rudras, while the lesser ones are reborn as their retinue. This kind of rudra, along with its retinue, needs to be subjugated, but to try to subjugate a rudra like this via peaceful means would be quite fruitless. The vehicles based on the sūtras do not teach any methods viable for subjugating beings such as these, and so their subjugation cannot be addressed in the context of the sūtrayāna. However, on the path of the unsurpassed secret mantra, when there is a being that needs to be subjugated, there are a variety of methods offered to perform this subjugation. In general, secret mantra is characterized by a plurality of methods that fit just about any situation. The particular method that is used to subjugate rudras is called dralwa or “liberating”.

The Tamer

Returning to the story of Rudra Black Liberation, it was at this point that, at the urging of the Heruka of enlightened activity, the Buddhas of the Three Times in the Akanistha pure realm came to realize that here was a disastrous situation, and an extremely disruptive being. They convened a special meeting to discuss exactly how to deal with the rudra who was responsible. Realizing that he could not be dealt with effectively by peaceful means, they agreed that the circumstances demanded as special wrathful manifestation. So, through their emanated countless wrathful deities, such as Hayagriva, the “Glorious Horse-Necked One”, to overcome Rudra for the sake of all living beings. This is what some accounts tell us, but here I will explain the account given in the Vajrakīlaya tantras, which describes how the tamer of Rudra Black Liberation was none other than Vajrakīlaya.

And the book continues with the chapter:
The Method of Taming

:namaste:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Rebirth as a Rudra

Postby CapNCrunch » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:28 am

Hi Y'all,

Wow - Groovy. I have my "own" thread w/o even starting one :smile: Thank you to the mods for spotting my question and providing the means for an answer.

It was a prescient choice as my curiosity about the use of "Rudra" was first piqued when Namdrol mentioned it in context of Dorje Drolo thread. I was a little shy to ask about it being so new, and having just told Mod Tara that I was prolly not going to post much here given the limited editing time on this board and my penchant for popping off 1/2 cocked. Not so much on Buddhist boards b/c my ideas about samaya keep me in check - but I *do* have a history on forums where Mormonism is being debated :stirthepot:

In spite of these past experiences, receiving an answer like this reminds me of the upside of Internet forums - an ocean of knowledge is there, waiting to be accessed within the borg, er, board "collective".

So much so that I might brave a thread to address a question(s) that I've had for a long time.

Thank you to all those who provided this interesting background.
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