after understanding im nothing

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:38 pm

Hi all,
i hope everyone is having a nice day.
I am having a little problem that i cant solve at the moment.I have studied buddhism for some time now and read about advaita.But in the end rejected everything since i was i stuck on the words and they were conditioning my thought as i saw.
So then i started observing and understanding how things are.
In the end I started separating the different parts of the object and saw there really isnt anything.Things are made up of many parts.So no essence.
So pretty much what buddhism says.
Now im having this weird experience.when i see my self in the mirror i cant recognize it as me.or i now experientially i know there isnt a "i"
I dont attach to anything.Even if i want too.
Since i know there isnt anything to attach too.So far so good.
Problem now is.there is a feeling of not living.since i know there isnt a me.all this is a illusion and even the desire of living is going.

I know about the extreme look on this and people will say that livng and non living is a extreme view and buddhism says no to extreme view.but that doesnt really answer anything...
thanks for reading! :twothumbsup:
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:57 pm

tuddel wrote:Things are made up of many parts.So no essence.
So pretty much what buddhism says.


ok ....

Now im having this weird experience.when i see my self in the mirror i cant recognize it as me.or i now experientially i know there isnt a "i"


You can't recognize yourself in a mirror? Really? You don't see your image there? Perhaps you have become a vampire?

I dont attach to anything.Even if i want too.


Really? It sounds like you have become attached to nothingness or to an idea of emptiness.Or perhaps you are depressed?

Problem now is.there is a feeling of not living.since i know there isnt a me.all this is a illusion and even the desire of living is going.


Do you get hungry? Do experiences of desire or anger arise?

You can get into different mindstates where the things you are talking about happen. If you look closely you will find that it is not true that you have overcome all attachment. Anyway overcoming attachment for real or really understanding selflessness is only a first step (however really understanding selflessness is a major first step). How do you live your life from that? How do you help others? If you had actually overcome attachment then even the question of "the desire of living" would not arise. So it sounds like you are in a negative mindstate even if it might be pervaded with a kind of equanimity. So this will dissolve by itself shortly (a few days max unless you are off by yourself in a quiet, non-challenging environment).

I know about the extreme look on this and people will say that livng and non living is a extreme view and buddhism says no to extreme view.but that doesnt really answer anything...
thanks for reading! :twothumbsup:


Living and non-living as extreme views? Well we are born due to previous karma, then our life unfolds, we create more karma, die at some point and if we haven't attained some degree of liberation are reborn helplessly. Over and over again ....

Take a close look. Beings around you are constantly experiencing negative circumstances and are perishing. What do you think about them?

Most importantly - do you have a Buddhist teacher? We can very easily misunderstand the profound teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. The bottom line is that Buddha wants everyone to be happy and joyful. All his teachings are for that.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:32 pm

lets see if i can learn how you did the quote thing first.also thanks for replying :)
You can't recognize yourself in a mirror? Really? You don't see your image there? Perhaps you have become a vampire?

language always has its limits.so il try to explain in a different way.There is a figure but that figure isnt considered or recognized as a me.Im not blind but recognizing as a me is different than just seeing a body.

Really? It sounds like you have become attached to nothingness or to an idea of emptiness.

I am not sure i am attached to it.but the silence and peace of it is not a bad thing.
there isnt a idea since i rejected all ideas.this for me is a actual real experience.

as for your other points im not sure i am still observing.
I was hoping if someone else has had this experience :)
thanks for your reply! :thanks:
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:35 pm

Most importantly - do you have a Buddhist teacher? We can very easily misunderstand the profound teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. The bottom line is that Buddha wants everyone to be happy and joyful. All his teachings are for that.

I dont have and dont plan too.I have rejected all the ideas they have and look into personal experience :)
Then all the problem starts.mahayana?thervada?vajrayana?its a waste of time and i have wasted my time before
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:32 pm

tuddel wrote:lets see if i can learn how you did the quote thing first.also thanks for replying :)
You can't recognize yourself in a mirror? Really? You don't see your image there? Perhaps you have become a vampire?

language always has its limits.so il try to explain in a different way.There is a figure but that figure isnt considered or recognized as a me.Im not blind but recognizing as a me is different than just seeing a body.


Ok .... so what is you?

Really? It sounds like you have become attached to nothingness or to an idea of emptiness.

I am not sure i am attached to it.but the silence and peace of it is not a bad thing.
there isnt a idea since i rejected all ideas.this for me is a actual real experience.


Peace is enticing. Temporary peace is okay but you shouldn't get stuck in it. Silence ? I'm personally not such a fan of silence myself but it looks like most people are.

as for your other points im not sure i am still observing.
I was hoping if someone else has had this experience :)
thanks for your reply! :thanks:


How did the experience arise?

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:37 pm

tuddel wrote:
Most importantly - do you have a Buddhist teacher? We can very easily misunderstand the profound teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. The bottom line is that Buddha wants everyone to be happy and joyful. All his teachings are for that.

I dont have and dont plan too.I have rejected all the ideas they have and look into personal experience :)
Then all the problem starts.mahayana?thervada?vajrayana?its a waste of time and i have wasted my time before


If you rejected all the ideas they have then how did you happen to see that you are essenceless?

People can come to premature conclusions. The thing is not to become a copy of another person or to adopt their views but to really attain real realization. Partial realization, even if real, can be a problem even though all realization is more or less gradual. We really do need teachers to help us not get stuck.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:46 pm

kirtu wrote:
tuddel wrote:
Most importantly - do you have a Buddhist teacher? We can very easily misunderstand the profound teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. The bottom line is that Buddha wants everyone to be happy and joyful. All his teachings are for that.

I dont have and dont plan too.I have rejected all the ideas they have and look into personal experience :)
Then all the problem starts.mahayana?thervada?vajrayana?its a waste of time and i have wasted my time before


If you rejected all the ideas they have then how did you happen to see that you are essenceless?

People can come to premature conclusions. The thing is not to become a copy of another person or to adopt their views but to really attain real realization. Partial realization, even if real, can be a problem even though all realization is more or less gradual. We really do need teachers to help us not get stuck.

Kirt


thru observation.Im ok with asking but teachers i dont want really.then it has many many problems.more negative than positive if you dont find the right one.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:50 pm

Ok .... so what is you?

a temporary consciousness as i see

Peace is enticing. Temporary peace is okay but you shouldn't get stuck in it. Silence ? I'm personally not such a fan of silence myself but it looks like most people are.


peace and silence is quite the same i should have just said peace then.

How did the experience arise?

Kirt

I looked at different parts that makes me.memory thought,body and looked for myself.And i coudnt find it.
Kept on doing this and this thing happened.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:09 pm

tuddel wrote:
I looked at different parts that makes me.memory thought,body and looked for myself.And i coudnt find it.
Kept on doing this and this thing happened.


This kind of dissociation I think is a natural experience that can arise when contemplating various levels of emptiness in a thorough way. There is also a flavor of it that can happen spontaneously due to shock or trauma.

Usually a sustained period of retreat and mediation or contemplation is a precursor, or travel to an unfamiliar land that doesn't hold habitual reference points, etc. But for a sharp person it can happen just by contemplation alone, as seems to have happened for you.

One risk is that one could easily fall into a type of dull-state-- where the normal vibrancy of life is not sharp, or where the natural spontaneous arising of emotions is not liberated but simply dampened, or repressed, etc. Non of these type of pitfalls are easy to recognize, or self diagonse-- for the person experiencing them. That is why an experienced practitioner who has traversed the path much further than oneself and is familiar with experiences and pitfalls is recommended to be taken as a teacher, or guide. Sometimes we really need this.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:16 pm

Adamantine wrote:
tuddel wrote:
I looked at different parts that makes me.memory thought,body and looked for myself.And i coudnt find it.
Kept on doing this and this thing happened.


This kind of dissociation I think is a natural experience that can arise when contemplating various levels of emptiness in a thorough way. There is also a flavor of it that can happen spontaneously due to shock or trauma.

Usually a sustained period of retreat and mediation or contemplation is a precursor, or travel to an unfamiliar land that doesn't hold habitual reference points, etc. But for a sharp person it can happen just by contemplation alone, as seems to have happened for you.

One risk is that one could easily fall into a type of dull-state-- where the normal vibrancy of life is not sharp, or where the natural spontaneous arising of emotions is not liberated but simply dampened, or repressed, etc. Non of these type of pitfalls are easy to recognize, or self diagonse-- for the person experiencing them. That is why an experienced practitioner who has traversed the path much further than oneself and is familiar with experiences and pitfalls is recommended to be taken as a teacher, or guide. Sometimes we really need this.


One risk is that one could easily fall into a type of dull-state-- where the normal vibrancy of life is not sharp

I highly agree with what you said.And i am noticing them but not sure how to get out as of now :p
Any ideas to this?thanks!
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:26 pm

tuddel wrote:
Ok .... so what is you?

a temporary consciousness as i see


Then what's the problem?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:31 pm

kirtu wrote:
tuddel wrote:
Ok .... so what is you?

a temporary consciousness as i see


Then what's the problem?

Kirt


the problem is i dont find a reason to continue this life.logically even my body doesnt want to continue as i see.
im not saying this in a depressing way.im very happy actually.
but then i see many people suffering and i need to help them then that i see is the way.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:07 pm

tuddel wrote:
the problem is i dont find a reason to continue this life.logically even my body doesnt want to continue as i see.
im not saying this in a depressing way.im very happy actually.
but then i see many people suffering and i need to help them then that i see is the way.


But if this "you" has clearly been apperceived to lack inherent existence, then what is not finding a reason to continue in this life? What is there to accept or reject life? It seems the same "I" that was seen to be nothing has re-emerged in that insight, which actually serves to negate the initial insight. The true absence of the "I" should manifest as a complete and total severance beyond intellectual understanding.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:11 pm

tuddel wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
tuddel wrote:
I looked at different parts that makes me.memory thought,body and looked for myself.And i coudnt find it.
Kept on doing this and this thing happened.


This kind of dissociation I think is a natural experience that can arise when contemplating various levels of emptiness in a thorough way. There is also a flavor of it that can happen spontaneously due to shock or trauma.

Usually a sustained period of retreat and mediation or contemplation is a precursor, or travel to an unfamiliar land that doesn't hold habitual reference points, etc. But for a sharp person it can happen just by contemplation alone, as seems to have happened for you.

One risk is that one could easily fall into a type of dull-state-- where the normal vibrancy of life is not sharp, or where the natural spontaneous arising of emotions is not liberated but simply dampened, or repressed, etc. Non of these type of pitfalls are easy to recognize, or self diagonse-- for the person experiencing them. That is why an experienced practitioner who has traversed the path much further than oneself and is familiar with experiences and pitfalls is recommended to be taken as a teacher, or guide. Sometimes we really need this.


One risk is that one could easily fall into a type of dull-state-- where the normal vibrancy of life is not sharp

I highly agree with what you said.And i am noticing them but not sure how to get out as of now :p
Any ideas to this?thanks!


I can't say for sure that I have had the same experience as you, but I believe I have had similar ones. In general, I would say you should have confidence that if you are patient, this will pass on it's own given enough time.

How long have you been experiencing this so far?

There are probably ways to work with this experience to maximize it's positive potentials and insights, while abandoning the negative effects, such as dullness, etc. For this, I am sorry to say, I believe a teacher is really quite important. I do understand your reticence, but there are great teachers out there, just as there are bad ones or charlatans. You should have confidence in your own discriminating awareness in this regard. If you would like help with references, I can try to help, just PM me.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:32 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
tuddel wrote:
the problem is i dont find a reason to continue this life.logically even my body doesnt want to continue as i see.
im not saying this in a depressing way.im very happy actually.
but then i see many people suffering and i need to help them then that i see is the way.


But if this "you" has clearly been apperceived to lack inherent existence, then what is not finding a reason to continue in this life? What is there to accept or reject life? It seems the same "I" that was seen to be nothing has re-emerged in that insight, which actually serves to negate the initial insight. The true absence of the "I" should manifest as a complete and total severance beyond intellectual understanding.


I wont say this is a true absence of "I" nor i have a experience of this or whatever this true absence is.But there is this experience that somehow is detaching from the person.do you have this true absence of "i"? :thanks:
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby Jinzang » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:26 am

Not knowing you or being able to speak to you makes it difficult to give advice. So I'll stick to my standard advice.

I have a term for this type of thinking. I call it "the frame." The frame is our running commentary on our situation. It includes thoughts like, "this is bad/good," "life is wonderful/meaningless," "my practice is going well/poorly." From the standpoint of meditation practice all thoughts. every single one of them, needs to be witnessed and acknowledged without additional commentary. Simply watching our thoughts without clinging to them is the best antidote to any persistent pattern of thinking. You should try this and see what happens.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:37 am

Jinzang wrote:Not knowing you or being able to speak to you makes it difficult to give advice. So I'll stick to my standard advice.

I have a term for this type of thinking. I call it "the frame." The frame is our running commentary on our situation. It includes thoughts like, "this is bad/good," "life is wonderful/meaningless," "my practice is going well/poorly." From the standpoint of meditation practice all thoughts. every single one of them, needs to be witnessed and acknowledged without additional commentary. Simply watching our thoughts without clinging to them is the best antidote to any persistent pattern of thinking. You should try this and see what happens.


Yes i do this.its pretty basic.thanks though.
For me to see "what is" the past shoudnt be there.because the past distorts whats actually there.
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby Quiet Heart » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:06 am

tuddel wrote:Hi all,
i hope everyone is having a nice day.
I am having a little problem that i cant solve at the moment.I have studied buddhism for some time now and read about advaita.But in the end rejected everything since i was i stuck on the words and they were conditioning my thought as i saw.
So then i started observing and understanding how things are.
In the end I started separating the different parts of the object and saw there really isnt anything.Things are made up of many parts.So no essence.
So pretty much what buddhism says.
Now im having this weird experience.when i see my self in the mirror i cant recognize it as me.or i now experientially i know there isnt a "i"
I dont attach to anything.Even if i want too.
Since i know there isnt anything to attach too.So far so good.
Problem now is.there is a feeling of not living.since i know there isnt a me.all this is a illusion and even the desire of living is going.

I know about the extreme look on this and people will say that livng and non living is a extreme view and buddhism says no to extreme view.but that doesnt really answer anything...
thanks for reading! :twothumbsup:

-----------------------------------------

:smile:
No! You've got the wrong end of the knife.
Don't grab it by the blade, grap it by the handle....you won't be cut that way.

What I mean is that somehow you feel there is no YOU to find.
That's not right. What you're seeing is that there is no SEPERATE you apart the you that is all the sum of all those "parts".
That's the reality....you and all the other "parts" are one thing...interdependent.
That doesn't mean there isn't a "you", it simply means that "you" are part of one whole thing.
So there is a "you", but is just not an individual "you", it's a giant collective you.

Look at it that way, and don't grab the knife by the blade.
Instead grab the knife by the handle, and make use of it.
:smile:

P.S. It's a stage we go through...we grow out of it.
Hopefully, one day you will wake up and see that the seperate individal "you" was an illusion generated by your own mind.
You were only seeing a small part of the whole picture.
Now you are seeing the bigger picture...and that individual "you" illusion is revealed as only a part of that wider interdendent "YOU" that was there all along.
Then, when you know that fact, you can see the whole scene...without the need for illusions.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby maybay » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:23 am

For me to see "what is" the past shoudnt be there.because the past distorts whats actually there.

This is the commentary Jinzang just warned you about. Can you see it now?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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Re: after understanding im nothing

Postby tuddel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:36 am

maybay wrote:
For me to see "what is" the past shoudnt be there.because the past distorts whats actually there.

This is the commentary Jinzang just warned you about. Can you see it now?

No sorry what do you mean?
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