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The Danger of Rebirth - Page 25 - Dhamma Wheel

The Danger of Rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 am

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:18 am


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:04 am

Mike, I have never heard this idea from another teacher. But I only have experience with a few teachers.

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:37 am

Greetings,

From what I understand "Dhamma language" refers to ultimate terms.

So, jati (birth) might conventionally mean childbirth or conception, but jati in ultimate terms, means something different... namely the birth of a conceptualised "I" resulting from ignorance.

Well that's how I understand what Buddhadasa aimed to communicate.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:59 am


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:17 am

Greetings Mike,

It is the contention of Buddhadasa that each of the twelve nidanas of dependent origination are ultimate paramattha... rather than being a mish-mash of conventional and ultimate.

What I don't understand however is why people then take this so far as to say that this particular way of looking at dependent origination necessitates the denial of conventional rebirth.... I've never understand that leap of thinking, because as you and others point out, there are plenty of instances of rebirth in the suttas which are unambiguously referring to conventional rebirth.... it just happens to be that they're generally about subjects other than dependent origination.

It's worth pointing out that the word 'jati' has been traditionally interpreted as conventional birth when used in the suttas, but its most common usage in the Abhidhamma is a momentary-birth.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:21 am


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:30 am

Greetings Tilt,

What venerable Buddhadasa presented with respect to dependent origination was excellent, but the logic he used to explain it has been expanded by many of his followers beyond its intended scope (much like you say) into areas where it is misapplied and used inappropriately (e.g. to deny conventional rebirth, to deny kamma bearing fruit in the future beyond the original action)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby cooran » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:40 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:20 am



I can see what he is saying, but this is something that is peculiar to him.

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:15 am


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:57 am

Right, I'm lost (sorry).... can someone provide a brief summary before we keep going?

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:02 am

Greetings Chris,

I think so. Buddhadasa teaches dependent origination as a non-time-delineated model, not too dissimilar from the visual I presented model here (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21) ... in this model, "birth" doesn't mean "rebirth" like it does in the commentarial 3-lifetime version. Personally, I think he's got this right... but extending it into places of the Dhamma where birth is clearly meant "conventionally", is misleading.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:12 pm

Greetings Friends

I think what i made the mistake of doing was taking Buddhadasa teaching on the buddhas higher dhamma language and wordly dhamma language withhout explaining the meaning of it and excpecting everyone to be familliar with that teaching style, which lead to confusion



As for dependent origination and rebirth, just because it occurs in moments i dont take it to mean that can be without a doubt no rebirth, or that it has nothing to do with it if it does happen, its just in my understanding it was never taught as an explanation of rebirth by the buddha, even if it does lead to rebirth. I see it as being taught so one can see how dukkha and self view arise in the moment so they can then put an end to it in the moment. If it does cover three lives, its irrelevant. At least thats my understanding on its intended meaning and usage

I think it can be easily taken as meaning there is no dukkha after death because if one is used to the three lives model and its explanation of rebirth and then sees its taught in moments, this can lead to the conclusion that there is no dukkha after death then since there is no model for it. This is what i nearly did but this misses several points

That the buddha wasnt a liar or deceitful so why would he teach something that he had no knowledge of or knew wouldnt happen

At that time in India there were already lots of people who were following teachings that denied rebirth (i.e. the annihilationsist, and the later Cārvākas show how a religion can take off and not include rebirth) so he wouldnt have needed to include it as a teaching tool just to get people to follow his own teachings since others at the time were ready to accept non rebirth

Also the Buddha wasnt concerned with gaining followers, he only taught to those who wanted to hear, so he wasnt in the habbit of changing his Dhamma to suite other people by adding concepts of rebirth, he only taught Dhamma, the only difference is how much of the Dhamma he would reveal to each individual need, so some could only accept rebirth, others could accept the four noble truths and so on.

The Buddha didnt teach rupa death was the end of all dukkha and I-making, he said craving was, otherwise why didnt he just teach suicide


This of course is not to say that i fully accept rebirth, i dont. I have confidence in it because it was taught by the buddha but since i have no direct knowledge, im going to keep some skepticism. This however is just how it works for me, some people may benefit more from accepting rebirth completely and there will be some who benefit more from the Dhamma by having no view of rebirth, everyones practice and needs are different


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:43 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:17 pm

You do raise a very good point and your quote does seem to show dependent origination as three lives and discussing conventional death etc. However the point i raise is this


Since dependent origination does occur in moments reguardless, its extremely useful to see and understanding how it comes about in the moment. This way one knows how dukkha arises dependent on conditions and can work to remove it in the moment which is what i feel is in line with the buddhas teachings since he was concerned with liberation in the here and now. When one sees depenent origination in the moments then one comes to a deeper understanding of it which allows for nibbana by quenching all craving

I think it all comes down to whats practical which i feel is seeing it in moments since its not removed from the present, all links are rising and ending here


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:38 pm


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:48 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

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