Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators
cf here http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 20Diam.htmShemmy wrote:Sadly, Nydahl's aids who said they would email me and send texts used for the Karmapa 16 guru yoga practice never did get back to me. So, I never ended up practicing the meditation.
When Lama Ole came to Bangkok last year, there seemed to be some amount of paranoia among the Vajrayana-Mahayana Buddhists here and very few of the regulars were in attendance though I'm sure most knew about it. I was curious why no one came out and I asked. The Shambhala people cited some vague Trungpa criticisms and warnings. I wonder if Trungpa wasn't worried about competition from Lama Ole. An organizer from another group cited Lama Ole's sexual permissiveness as an issue and they didn't want to lose their reputation in Thailand by coming to see him and thereby appear to endorse promiscuity. So, the crowd at the Bangkok one day lecture was mostly his own followers who happened to be on holiday in Thailand or following him on tour.
Knotty Veneer wrote:I don't why you think those who didn't rush to sit at the feet of Ole are paranoid. Ole has cultivated the bad boy attitude asiduously for many years with the express purpose of keeping out the "spiritually uptight". Also some people are old fashioned enough simply to avoid those teachers whose behavior they think is destructive.
conebeckham wrote:Knotty Veneer wrote:I don't why you think those who didn't rush to sit at the feet of Ole are paranoid. Ole has cultivated the bad boy attitude asiduously for many years with the express purpose of keeping out the "spiritually uptight". Also some people are old fashioned enough simply to avoid those teachers whose behavior they think is destructive.
I don't know if paranoia is the right word. Perhaps "caution" might be the more appropriate word. Some of those who don't attend or follow Ole, whether they're Trungpa's folks or not, may avoid him because they question his qualifications, and not for any "bad boy" image he may cultivate.
gregkavarnos wrote:Hate to be the one that breaks this to you but sexual permisiveness is normative everywhere in Europe nowadays, especially in Oles homeland of Denmark. Actually sexual permisiveness is not frowned upon in Buddhism per se anyway. It is not included under any of the categories of unwholesome sexual behaviour so where is the problem with sexual permisiveness? Tibetans are also pretty good with the old sexual permisiveness.
As for his credentials, well, okay...
But his low standing in academia? So what?
I agree that trying to fob off all critique as a "hermeneutic of suspicion" is a little too overarching. I did warn people that the article was "at times biased".
And the issue of power relationships between students and teachers is one that I personally have raised in other threads too.
The thing is that I want people to reply to the article and its portrayal of Diamond Way, I don't want this thread to devolve into yet another "put the boot into Ole" thread. That's just too boring.
What do you mean by Western? Because the practices are almost exclusively run-of-the-mill standard Karma Kagyu and normally done in Tibetan.Knotty Veneer wrote:Diamondway is very "Western" in character and I think perhaps current members like that and would find a more traditionally "Tibetan" style unpalatable.
gregkavarnos wrote:What do you mean by Western? Because the practices are almost exclusively run-of-the-mill standard Karma Kagyu and normally done in Tibetan.Knotty Veneer wrote:Diamondway is very "Western" in character and I think perhaps current members like that and would find a more traditionally "Tibetan" style unpalatable.
conebeckham wrote:My (limited; one-time only) experience with Diamond Way--a bunch of young people get together in a living room, sit down, and play a cassette tape of Ole speaking in English, "leading" what's called, by their centers, the "Three Lights Meditation "-it's actually a Guru Yoga based on, and composed by, 16th Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpai Dorje, (A Shower of Ambrosia Generating the Shoot of the four Kayas, is the actual name: bla.ma'i.rnal.'byor.sku.bzhi'i.myu.gu.skyed.byed.bdud.rtsi'i.char.rgyun.ces.bya.ba.'zhugs.so). It was presented somewhat like a guided meditation. Say some "Karmapa Khyenno" mantras, a couple minutes of silent meditation, and you're done. Everyone gets up, but a few of the guys pass around a page in Tibetan, which they proceed to chant, quickly, standing up (turns out it's what we call the "Ma Dag Ma," a short Solkha to Karma Kagyu Protectors). Lots of laughter when it's finished, then it was social hour. A card table in the living room, with Ole's books on display for purchase.
Comparing it to any other Tibetan Dharma center, including even Vajradhatu/Shambhala centers, it was like apples and oranges. But hey, it was just one visit....can't say it was the typical experience.
Hate to be the one to inform you, but it is already working, there are more than 600 Diamond Way centres worldwide.Knotty Veneer wrote:its leadership appears dysfunctional and Ole is not really the person who is going to actually make something like this work.
that's not the case with DW though, since it draws all its practices from the Karma Kagyu tradition and, from my personal experience, here in Greece and in France they are practiced in Tibetan.Other groups who've tried this sort of thing like the Triratna Community or Vajradhatu/Shambhala tend to end up with a rather ragbag set of practices drawn from a variety of sources which does not reflect a single source tradition (that is not to say they are ineffective).
Aro people have no legitimacy because they do not belong to any tradition (cf above comment) so, except for the fact that they are both lay organisations, they are not really comparable.Maybe something like the Aro gTer group might be a better example - although it seems to draw a lot of criticism around the authenticity of its teachings (something I am not in a position to comment on).