Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jikan » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:28 am

trevor wrote:I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.


Related:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7404&view=unread#p88059

There are people who resonate with, say, Orly Taitz. This doesn't mean Orly Taitz knows what she's talking about, merely that she knows how to... resonate with a certain kind of personality.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby trevor » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:56 am

Jikan wrote:
trevor wrote:I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.


Related:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7404&view=unread#p88059

There are people who resonate with, say, Orly Taitz. This doesn't mean Orly Taitz knows what she's talking about, merely that she knows how to... resonate with a certain kind of personality.


But nobody is 100% false all the time. There are always things in there that are true or that can be at least interpreted in a way that makes sense. That's why I think that it is much more useful to pick a certain idea and explain why it is false, rather than saying that the whole package is a No-No. It only makes people more confused.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Sönam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:51 am

we are no more in the Dzogchen sub-forum? ... I though we were. What is the interest then to speak about the pertinence of such a guy like the one entitled?

:stirthepot:
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Last edited by Sönam on Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mariusz » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:53 am

Anders Honore wrote:Of course. But I am not so much pointing Massaro's direction as I am Dharmawheel's with that comment. Seems to me that, irrespective of whether he is a well-meaning deluded soul, a devious charlatan or a realised bodhisattva, there is a fair bit of casual nastiness, in the sense of happily attributing callous greed to this guy just because someone else entirely proposed the heterodox notion that he might be 'there in a dzogchen sense' (let's face it, no one would have mustered the interest to slander him like this if not for that). I would like to think as Buddhists we can do better.

To see Him from buddhist perspective perhaps he is good for some kind of intellectual self-relax but for sure for serious buddhist it is more safe to study buddhist sutra like madhyamaka and its commentaries, for example Karmapa Mikyo Dorje and Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje where the "self-liberation".
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:39 pm

"To see Him from buddhist perspective perhaps he is good for some kind of intellectual self-relax but for sure for serious buddhist it is more safe to study buddhist sutra like madhyamaka and its commentaries, for example Karmapa Mikyo Dorje and Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje where the "self-liberation"."

Sometimes a fresh look from a different angle can "shake" things up a bit. Old-timers in this stuff get stale and stuck... Always be willing to explore and be open to amazing possibilities... :-)
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jikan » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:49 pm

trevor wrote:
But nobody is 100% false all the time. There are always things in there that are true or that can be at least interpreted in a way that makes sense. That's why I think that it is much more useful to pick a certain idea and explain why it is false, rather than saying that the whole package is a No-No. It only makes people more confused.


Sure. My point is that "it resonates with me" is not really a criterion for truth value. Something that is true or false can resonate with a person. Because it is possible for things that are blatantly false to resonate (cf. propaganda, advertising, jingoism, love-and-light trips...), it seems more productive to rely on other criteria.

Otherwise you wind up cobbling together a mass of "things that resonate with me and therefore must be objectively true" as the content of your spirituality. Contradictions and problems ensue. One example: http://www.integralworld.net/meyerhoff-ba-toc.html
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:09 pm

Jikan wrote:
trevor wrote:
But nobody is 100% false all the time. There are always things in there that are true or that can be at least interpreted in a way that makes sense. That's why I think that it is much more useful to pick a certain idea and explain why it is false, rather than saying that the whole package is a No-No. It only makes people more confused.


Sure. My point is that "it resonates with me" is not really a criterion for truth value. Something that is true or false can resonate with a person. Because it is possible for things that are blatantly false to resonate (cf. propaganda, advertising, jingoism, love-and-light trips...), it seems more productive to rely on other criteria.

Otherwise you wind up cobbling together a mass of "things that resonate with me and therefore must be objectively true" as the content of your spirituality. Contradictions and problems ensue. One example: http://www.integralworld.net/meyerhoff-ba-toc.html



Following what "resonates" is our deep intuitive gift and capacity and should be heeded. Its following the heart instead of the head. Resonates, should not be confused with "attracted to" on some superficial ego level. We know the difference... its an innate and intrinsic knowing that is an aspect of omniscience.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby spanda » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:36 pm

Jax wrote:
Following what "resonates" is our deep intuitive gift and capacity and should be heeded. Its following the heart instead of the head.


Or maybe folowing you?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jikan » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:39 pm

Jax wrote:Following what "resonates" is our deep intuitive gift and capacity and should be heeded. Its following the heart instead of the head. Resonates, should not be confused with "attracted to" on some superficial ego level. We know the difference... its an innate and intrinsic knowing that is an aspect of omniscience.


Who is "we"?

Look, by your logic, Marjoe Gortner was an authentic spiritual master to many thousands of Americans, simply because he was experienced as such by them, good people who thought for sure they "knew the difference" in their hearts and refused to use their heads.

The heart is important. It's important to pull your head out and use some reason from time to time too.

I know that resonates with me. How about "we"?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:02 pm

Hi Jax,

Are you indeed, Jackson Peterson, the person referred to here: (Sorry I took this link out b/c it splashes specific methods all about a web forum. I should have been more careful)

and the one that runs this study group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DzogchenCourses/ ??

If so, do I understand correctly that you hold retreats yourself?
Last edited by CapNCrunch on Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:23 pm

I feel the other way around, I would love to hear why what he teaches should be considered in any way related to rigpa or Dzogchen. So feel free to explain this trevor, I feel we deserve that.


I could not agree more Magnus. Which is why I've extended the invitation over in the "Dzogchen and Neo Advaita" thread for someone who is familiar w/ both POV's to state the Neo Adviata view as clearly as possible, so it can be compared vis a vis the Dzogchen view.

Perhaps it's simply not possible - but given the comments on this board re: "Cryto Advaitans" and the fact that so many people with a sincere interest in Dzogchen, like myself, who have also read a lot of the Adviata/Neo Adviata stuff available on the Web, I'm hopeful that it *is* indeed possible to look at both sides of this so there can be greater understanding.

For me, based on my personal experience w/ my teacher, Dzogchen view and the words of my Teacher are definitive. But I am keen to understand precisely why the Adviata/Neo Adviata view fails - and further, precisely *what* it is that these "teachers", if they are indeed deluded, are describing as their own personal state of realization. Some of them, like Ramana Maharshi of old, and Tony Parsons more recently, have had these spontaneous "awakenings" - If these folks are deluded at worst, or at best, off track from a Dzogchen POV - then what is happening? And how can a schlepp like myself ever have confidence if there can be a lifelong "false" state of realization etc. etc.?

I guess, one answer might be method & fruits of the method. i.e. - If there really is "realization" then the fruits of that should follow - and if one is honest in examining ones self, there should be evidence. But for a total beginner like me, what to do?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:45 pm

Hey CapnCrunch!

Yes, indeed that is my weblist.

Advaita is very powerful approach to non-duality. Non-duality is non-duality no matter what the "cultists" say on either side about each other. I would recommend everybody explore actual Advaita teachings. The teachings can disclose many blind spots in your own understanding or insight. Ramana Maharshi and Nisgardatta were profoundly enlightened beings. Their writings are excellent in general, and often act like "direct introductions". You may enjoy Jean Klein's teachings as well.

Don't limit yourself in your explorations regarding the nature of Being and consciousness. Follow your interests... The purpose of life is to have fun, and for me having fun is maximized when all the people around me are having fun too! That's where the teaching comes in, its fun to help others have fun. I wish it weren't true, but suffering people are a drag on my fun, so lets see what we can do to bring them up to having fun too!

If you are truly a beginner, I would advise first starting with simple shamatha and vipassana. The most powerful thing you could do in the beginning would be to attend one the Goenka Ten Day Vipassana retreats. For years I have only heard rave reviews. The fully matured state of Vipassana is Rigpa. Shamatha is Kadag. Vipassana is Lhundrub.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Sönam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:48 pm

We will explore the teachings on the realization of the Divine Light as in ancient Christian, Sufi,Jewish Mysticism,Taoism, Buddhism,Dzogchen, Bon and any other authentic "Light" teachings. The Way of Light is a new approach and path for those who wish to practice without ritual, religious dogma, or cultural bias. We utilize only the essential and most direct methods for attaining Enlightment in this very life. The essential instructions are to be found in the Way of Light Awareness series also posted on our website: http://wayoflight.net
The Guru for this path is your own Heart of Awareness. Learning how to live a joyous life of service, guided by the Light of your own inherent Goodness, Love and Compassion for the benefit of all beings, is the Way of Light.

The Dalai Lama has stated:

"I believe deeply that we must find, all of us together, a new
spirituality. This new concept ought to be elaborated alongside the
religions in such a way that all people of good will could adhere to
it."

Also visit our website:
http://wayoflight.net

Welcome!

Jax
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Hi Jax,

Thank you for clarifying your identity. Now that I know you're one and the same person, I have to tell you that while I appreciate the non-combative manner in which you express yourself, I have a really hard time having confidence in what you're saying.

I'm happy to tell you precisely why - I think that it's an issue that many people would have - so it's your choice - I'm happy to have the discussion and ask my questions via PM or it can be here in the open so all can benefit.

I understand we're not on even terms in the sense that your identity is know to many, and mine isn't - but then, you're a public figure by choice, so perhaps you don't mind.

Please let me know what you prefer. I really would like to have a civil conversation b/c this issue has been bugging me for a long time, so it's good you're here and I can address my concerns.

Thanks for responding.

Re: your post - I don't dismiss out of hand Advaita, or any spiritual tradition. At the same time, life is so very, very short that I don't have time to follow many systems. Nor do I think it is good to conflate two systems that are different for very good reasons.

I disagree w/ your charge of fundamentalism - as in the folks here who have a different view of Dzogchen than you do are fundamentalists. I think that on the face of it, you're making some pretty bold claims that don't always jive w/ the traditional POV - it should be no surprise to you if people object and state their reasons why.

Believe me, bro, I've seen fundamentalism. Lived it. I'd like to make the distinction, but as I said, I'll give you the choice first whether we have that discussion via private chat, or here on the board, given the fact that you're identity is generally known, and mine is not.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:28 pm

No problem there. But you understand that Namdrol doesn't have the obligation to do so


Quite right. It's so much more economical to attack than defend - some people have better things to do than swat away every pesky fly that buzzes around - also, some things aren't up for debate in the first place (Dzogchen) even if one does have a Vajra tongue.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Virgo » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:31 pm

Jax wrote:The purpose of life is to have fun

To you, Jax, advaita and Dzogchen are almost interchangeable. Why? Well to you the purpose of life is to have fun. Studying non-dual teachings, and trying to experience or actually experiencing a non-dual state are seen as the ultimate good time, good feeling. Therefore, since Dzogchen is a "non-dual" teaching just like Advaita, might as well adopt that one for fun too! The problem is this is not a Buddhist view, and you are trying to plaster it onto a Buddhist teaching unjustly. This causes you to not pay enough respect to the tradition that Dzogchen came out of, and not to value the teachings of it's masters highly enough. To you it is just another non-dual teaching like Advaita vedanta and your can alter it all you want to fit in with other non-dual teachings. Therefore, you really have no place teaching Dzogchen, and, frankly, no offense, but your interpretations are therefore all suspect. The Buddha said "everything stems from view, view is the forerunner". Without the appropriate view, one misunderstands the Buddha's teachings.

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:04 pm

Dear Kevin,

Your sincerity is clear and honest. However, there is no "view". Your present "awareness", perfect as it is, is the "view". If you think that the purpose of Buddhism is not to allow all beings to have fun, then what are you engaged in Buddhism for? Bliss is aour natural condition my friend... discover the Natural Bliss of your Being, and may life always be fun for you too! Our you can suffer with your sober and serious "view". Anyway... its all perfect and there are no separate beings, I am you. And you are me. There is only one vast interpenetrating Field of Reality. Enjoy! :D
"
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Sönam » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Jax wrote:I am you. And you are me. There is only one vast interpenetrating Field of Reality. Enjoy! :D
"


This is not the dharma, not to speak of Dzogchen. It's sad that you polluate many threat with that kind of assertion.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:16 pm

Obviously Sonam your experience is limited to the theory you read about various views and how they are supposed to be. In non-duality, where can you find the least separation amongst "beings" or phenomena? This is the characteristic of Satori or realization, the Oneness that can't be conceptualized as "oneness". Less reading and more practice would be my recommendation. Have you completed gTumo to result? If so, you' ll know of what I speak. Likewise true nirvikalpa samadhi will reveal the same when Yeshe illumines your mind completely. Better to be a yogi than a scholar...
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:07 pm

Jax wrote:Have you completed gTumo to result? If so, you' ll know of what I speak. Likewise true nirvikalpa samadhi will reveal the same when Yeshe illumines your mind completely.


Are you saying you've attained the result of gtum mo as well as nirvikalpa samadhi?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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