Jax's Dzogchen

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: What is the Point of Togal?

Postby SayNoToJax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:19 pm

Astus wrote:What are the reasons for Togal practice?


The reason is the basis, which is your own nature.

In the basis (gzhi) there were neutral awarenesses (sh shes pa lung ma bstan) that did not recognize themselves. (Dzogchen texts actually do not distinguish whether this neutral awareness is one or multiple.) This non-recognition was the innate ignorance. Due to traces of action and affliction from a previous universe, the basis became stirred and the Five Pure Lights shone out. When a neutral awareness recognized the lights as its own display, that was Samantabhadra (immediate liberation without the performance of virtue). Other neutral awarenesses did not recognize the lights as their own display, and thus imputed “other” onto the lights. This imputation of “self” and “other” was the imputing ignorance. This ignorance started sentient beings and samsara (even without non-virtue having been committed).
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Re: What is the Point of Togal?

Postby Jax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:42 pm

If you read Longchenpa's Precious Seven Treasuries texts, the Lamas overseeing the translation, Chagdud Rinpoche, Tulku Thondup, Mingyur Rinpoche,Khenpo Tsewang Gyatso, Khenpo Gyurmed Tinley, and Lama Sonam Tsering... ALL chose the word "awareness" to be used for Rigpa whenever cited. That is good enough for me. Also Tulku Urgyen often uses the term "awareness" for Rigpa in his dual volume As It Is texts. I could go on and on... However your translation as "knowledge" is clearly wrong. That would be just translating "vidya" as knowledge from the sanskrit. The flavor is much more to the Greek "Gnosis" . Knowledge implies data known. Rigpa is definitely not "data" known or knowledge. You chose a poor example to attempt to discredit my familiarity with Dzogchen... try again... :-)
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Re: What is the Point of Togal?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:58 pm

Jax wrote:If you read Longchenpa's Precious Seven Treasuries texts, the Lamas overseeing the translation, Chagdud Rinpoche, Tulku Thondup, Mingyur Rinpoche,Khenpo Tsewang Gyatso, Khenpo Gyurmed Tinley, and Lama Sonam Tsering... ALL chose the word "awareness" to be used for Rigpa whenever cited.



No, actually it was the editorial staff who chose that term. Since I know the senior editor who works on those books quite well, I am quite sure of this.

That is good enough for me. Also Tulku Urgyen often uses the term "awareness" for Rigpa in his dual volume As It Is texts.


No, that would have been Eric Pema Kunsang. Eric has since decided that "awareness" is not a good equivalent for rigpa.

That would be just translating "vidya" as knowledge from the sanskrit.


Which is clearly the intent of the term "rigpa"; hence ChNN over and over again defines rigpa (vidyā) as a species of knowledge about one's state as opposed to avidyā, i.e. not knowing that state.

It is best to leave the term either in Tibetan or in Sanskrit.

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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Jax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:16 pm

Actually I do feel that Norbu misses the priorities. He needs to stay relentlessly on the topics of "direct introduction", shamatha, vipassana, sky gazing practice, gTumo (Kundalini yoga) and togal. These priorities would be much more beneficial than all the Vajra Dance, rites and rituals, song of the vajra etc. Time in life is short... stay focused...
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:36 pm

Depends. For you perhaps. But different strokes for different folk. Not everyone prefers the same topics you do. I believe ChNN knows what he is doing.
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:50 am

Jax, Rinpoche does emphasize all of the things you mentioned. Song of Vajra is an incredibly powerful semdzin and I have found it to be extremely beneficial. Are not semdzins and rushen important aspects of Dzogchen practice?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Josef » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:08 am

Jax wrote:Actually I do feel that Norbu misses the priorities. He needs to stay relentlessly on the topics of "direct introduction", shamatha, vipassana, sky gazing practice, gTumo (Kundalini yoga) and togal. These priorities would be much more beneficial than all the Vajra Dance, rites and rituals, song of the vajra etc. Time in life is short... stay focused...


Another clear example of how severe your misunderstanding really is.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:55 am

Jax wrote:That's a bit of the problem with the DC... it was quite hilarious to realize all the rituals, mantras and practices had nothing to do with Rigpa at all...


Intellectuals, you will never understand anything. Rituals is using your body, speech and mind in a useful way and in Vajrayana it has everything to do with rigpa. You are just showing how limited you are, luckily for his real students ChNNR have no such limits.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:41 am

Nangwa wrote:
Jax wrote:Actually I do feel that Norbu misses the priorities. He needs to stay relentlessly on the topics of "direct introduction", shamatha, vipassana, sky gazing practice, gTumo (Kundalini yoga) and togal. These priorities would be much more beneficial than all the Vajra Dance, rites and rituals, song of the vajra etc. Time in life is short... stay focused...


Another clear example of how severe your misunderstanding really is.


agree ...

Jax, friendly, better stay focused! :smile:

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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:53 am

Gad Zooks! I mean Gad rGyangs... Ah, some clarity, how refreshing!
When we speak of "beings" benefiting from any teaching, we have already fallen into the illusion of there being "beings" in need of rescue. If you notice your naked Knowingness or naked Awareness exactly as it is in every moment, you won't be able to find any entity present in need of some rescue operation. If you do manage to find "someone" in need of rescue, your mind is suffering from being in contact with various approaches supporting the notion of "cause and effect" vehicles being of benefit to some independently existing entities called "beings". (don't mind me, I'm just Jax, flaunting my super-egotistical fake guru schtick). ;-)
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Re: rigpa != presence ?

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:52 pm

There are two kinds of "presence", hence the confusion, I believe. In Dzogchen teachings there is discussion of this "naked presence of alert Knowingness" that has no concept of subject/object functioning. It is non-dual (yermey) Samadhi or Ting'edzin. That is the only Rigpa presence. It has a certain gnosis or deep intuituve sense of self-being, being everything. Very, very hard to put into words, but it knows itself to be borderless transparent luminous empty awareness. This Wisdom is there automatically, non-conceptually. There is also a sense of pure organic delight.

Then there is the "presence" related to the mind. Norbu speaks of presence of awareness. What is presence in this case? It is the mind (sem) resting in its highest state of pure attention, without topic. However, it is a state of mind. Often people mistake resting in Rigpa with resting in this purely attentive state of mind. It is still sem. However when this presence of mind, which is a sort of transparent clarity, collapses into its basis, Rigpa, Rigpa is self-known, authentic Rigpa. The purpose of the many rushen's and semdzins is to bring a total "presence of mind" about. From there a good "phet" rightly timed could shatter this ultra thin veil of sem, revealing its Basis.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:24 pm

Pema and Magnus, there is no benefit from "relaxing" in relationship to recognition of one's essential nature. Again that would imply that there is some "cause and effect" means to come to realization possible. You may discover a relaxed state of mind and body, but neither have anything to do with Rigpa. There is no stairway to Rigpa. All you are climbing towards is a temporary state. Knowing Being is equally present whether one is a murderer or an advanced Lama, both have an equal likelihood of realization (per the 12 Vajra Laughs). What does that mean? Rigpa is not some holy or special state that can be accomplished, it is what is reading these typed words and is that intelligence that is noticing the thoughts arising regarding what is being read. If you are very tense, you still can read these words and notice your thoughts. Likewise if you are really relaxed you can do the same equally well. There are no obstructions to Awareness, nothing needs to be removed, corrected or improved. When you feel "obstructed" what is it that is knowing this "obstructed feeling"? That's right ... Awareness! It's ever present and there is no one to realize this... and no one has ever realized some state called "Rigpa". Its what you obviously are, not what you can become or realize!
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:40 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
wisdom wrote:In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


I don't think you really mean causal vehicles here, which only reinforce delusion. They do not serve dzogchen, they are the negation of it. read the kunjed gyalpo if you have any doubts about this.


Excuse me, I'm not allowed to discuss what I've learned from Dzogchen retreats with my Rinpoche. So for an analogy to not discuss it: your statement reminds me my past discussion here in forum on "the seeming" if it is totally faulty. Of course it is not totally faulty but points-out. In exactly the same manner the so-called "cause and effect" vehicle also points-out, so it is not the case it is not useful but only Dzogchen is useful. It is just exaggeration. Nevertheless, Dzogchen is very different from it (from for example madhyamaka) because of its superior methods.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:24 pm

Jax wrote: When we speak of "beings" benefiting from any teaching, we have already fallen into the illusion of there being "beings" in need of rescue. If you notice your naked Knowingness or naked Awareness exactly as it is in every moment, you won't be able to find any entity present in need of some rescue operation. If you do manage to find "someone" in need of rescue, your mind is suffering from being in contact with various approaches supporting the notion of "cause and effect" vehicles being of benefit to some independently existing entities called "beings". (don't mind me, I'm just Jax, flaunting my super-egotistical fake guru schtick). ;-)


Sounds like you have gone too far into the extreme of non-existence. Mere living beings do need rescuing, just as we do. Don't throw out compassion and love which are non-deluded minds in your search for the truth.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:31 pm

Jax wrote:Pema and Magnus, there is no benefit from "relaxing" in relationship to recognition of one's essential nature. Again that would imply that there is some "cause and effect" means to come to realization possible. You may discover a relaxed state of mind and body, but neither have anything to do with Rigpa. There is no stairway to Rigpa. All you are climbing towards is a temporary state. Knowing Being is equally present whether one is a murderer or an advanced Lama, both have an equal likelihood of realization (per the 12 Vajra Laughs). What does that mean? Rigpa is not some holy or special state that can be accomplished, it is what is reading these typed words and is that intelligence that is noticing the thoughts arising regarding what is being read. If you are very tense, you still can read these words and notice your thoughts. Likewise if you are really relaxed you can do the same equally well. There are no obstructions to Awareness, nothing needs to be removed, corrected or improved. When you feel "obstructed" what is it that is knowing this "obstructed feeling"? That's right ... Awareness! It's ever present and there is no one to realize this... and no one has ever realized some state called "Rigpa". Its what you obviously are, not what you can become or realize!


So Jax why are you teaching? It will never bring anyone to the recognition of the natural state according to your own opinion above. Teaching is 100% cause and effect.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:30 pm

heart wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
wisdom wrote:In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


I don't think you really mean causal vehicles here, which only reinforce delusion. They do not serve dzogchen, they are the negation of it. read the kunjed gyalpo if you have any doubts about this.


I said this before, but for newcomers I will repeat it again. The Kunjed Gyalpo is a Dzogchen manuals directed at practitioners of the Mahayoga and Anuyoga vehicles. Why is this? It is full of reference from those "lower" Tantras and how to let go of fixations one might have developed while practicing them. The Kunjed Gyalpo is not directed at very obscured Western intellectuals that think that if they read a Tantra they have understood it, which is why they will never understand it.

/magnus

Pema Rigdzin wrote: These are just your intellectual concepts from reading and misunderstanding the import of what you've read. There are definitely some relative experiences that make it easier for one to recognize one's knowledge of the natural state, and therefore there are definitely contrived practices that can bring about such conducive circumstances. Dzogchen is full of such practices. Contrived practices cannot "cause" one to recognize rigpa, so one cannot say they directly lead to that knowledge. But they can definitely make it easier for one to relax into that knowledge.


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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Jax » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:40 pm

heart wrote:
Jax wrote:Pema and Magnus, there is no benefit from "relaxing" in relationship to recognition of one's essential nature. Again that would imply that there is some "cause and effect" means to come to realization possible. You may discover a relaxed state of mind and body, but neither have anything to do with Rigpa. There is no stairway to Rigpa. All you are climbing towards is a temporary state. Knowing Being is equally present whether one is a murderer or an advanced Lama, both have an equal likelihood of realization (per the 12 Vajra Laughs). What does that mean? Rigpa is not some holy or special state that can be accomplished, it is what is reading these typed words and is that intelligence that is noticing the thoughts arising regarding what is being read. If you are very tense, you still can read these words and notice your thoughts. Likewise if you are really relaxed you can do the same equally well. There are no obstructions to Awareness, nothing needs to be removed, corrected or improved. When you feel "obstructed" what is it that is knowing this "obstructed feeling"? That's right ... Awareness! It's ever present and there is no one to realize this... and no one has ever realized some state called "Rigpa". Its what you obviously are, not what you can become or realize!


So Jax why are you teaching? It will never bring anyone to the recognition of the natural state according to your own opinion above. Teaching is 100% cause and effect.

/magnus


Magnus, teaching is just "happening"... for the purpose of pointing out as outlined above. Methods can be used for pacifying the mind. But deconstructing the entire notion of there being something "wrong" that needs fixing, or someone who needs to get somewhere... brings comfort and ease and exposes the natural bliss of Being that's always being "ignored" by the mind. There occurs a radical shift in the mind's orientation when recognized. However implying that there is someone that needs rescuing or that some aspect of the display needs correcting... only re-enforces the mind's dreaming within the polarities of hope and fear.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:51 pm

Jax wrote:Pema and Magnus, there is no benefit from "relaxing" in relationship to recognition of one's essential nature. Again that would imply that there is some "cause and effect" means to come to realization possible. You may discover a relaxed state of mind and body, but neither have anything to do with Rigpa. There is no stairway to Rigpa. All you are climbing towards is a temporary state. Knowing Being is equally present whether one is a murderer or an advanced Lama, both have an equal likelihood of realization (per the 12 Vajra Laughs). What does that mean? Rigpa is not some holy or special state that can be accomplished, it is what is reading these typed words and is that intelligence that is noticing the thoughts arising regarding what is being read. If you are very tense, you still can read these words and notice your thoughts. Likewise if you are really relaxed you can do the same equally well. There are no obstructions to Awareness, nothing needs to be removed, corrected or improved. When you feel "obstructed" what is it that is knowing this "obstructed feeling"? That's right ... Awareness! It's ever present and there is no one to realize this... and no one has ever realized some state called "Rigpa". Its what you obviously are, not what you can become or realize!


Let me put it this way to you, so that you don't continue to put forth that gibberish.
If I kidnap a fellow who just met Dzogchen, spank him all day long, inject mind altering drugs, make his life a living hell and so on and so forth, do you think he will recognize rigpa or even care? His awareness will be captured entirely by pain. He never recognized instant presence to start with. Under such adverse circumstances it's hardly a possibility in the great majority of cases. His priorities will be to flee, to regain his life back so that he can have some stability and sense of well being again. Does this mean he lost his real nature during the time I was torturing him? Is he devoid of his primordial wisdom? None of that. It means that there are obstacles that don't allow him to recognize rigpa, let alone remain in this recognition.

If we were talking about a highly realized practitioner, even under such dire circumstances he could maintain the recognition of his natural state.
However, most practitioners aren't highly accomplished yogis and never realized one taste. So experiences affect them a lot. You put things upside down, and forget that we are deluded and live under our specific karmic view. So you speak from an absolute perspective and forget that even though many things you say are correct, from the perspective of those deluded, those unaware of their natural state, illusions are needed to cut through illusion. Those illusions, because all cause/ effect methods are that, are needed to cut through the grand illusion. You forget this. The sky gazing that you seem to like is also an illusion. Yet a needed one. There's no need whatsoever to sky gaze. Yet at a certain point it is helpful. The same goes for all practices.

You say things as if remaining in rigpa at all moments was an easy thing to do. You should know better. There are several methods available so that one is able to fully integrate all activities, but it takes time.

You know, I just remembered that perhaps your lack of understating of the above is the reason why you value so little things like the Dance of Vajra (whose purpose is mainly this). Granted that it's not everyone's favorite and there are many ways to further integration, but it has a purpose and it is effective.

Let me say to you that what you are trying to convey is not original. There are many guys around thinking the way you do and that shows a lack of inside about the basics. A word of advice: go back to 101 while you still have time. We live in time and we never know when our time comes. It's frustrating to see someone who was so close getting more and more alienated in his own misconceptions and delusions of grandeur, Jax.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:01 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:It's frustrating to see someone who was so close getting more and more alienated in his own misconceptions and delusions of grandeur, Jax.


Which is a well known, identified, trap!

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Origins of Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:03 pm

Jax wrote:Magnus, teaching is just "happening"... for the purpose of pointing out as outlined above. Methods can be used for pacifying the mind. But deconstructing the entire notion of there being something "wrong" that needs fixing, or someone who needs to get somewhere... brings comfort and ease and exposes the natural bliss of Being that's always being "ignored" by the mind. There occurs a radical shift in the mind's orientation when recognized. However implying that there is someone that needs rescuing or that some aspect of the display needs correcting... only re-enforces the mind's dreaming within the polarities of hope and fear.

The deconstruction you talk about is mainly a product of insight. Paying lip service to it helps nobody. The teaching only happens for those able to recognize it as such. For a dog this is impossible. For those whose karmic vision is nearly as thick as that of a dog either.

Things can be put in terms of someone getting somewhere without damage. It's going from not recognizing instant presence to its recognition. It's not being able to remain in the recognition of the primordial state to never losing this recognition. This has no consequence to the base. It's always in relation to us and our progress.
It's like someone recognizing a diamond by doing a series of tests. The diamond was always a diamond. Our knowledge of it is what changed.

There's reason for hope and fear unless we can rest always in the primordial state, you see? Because if we can't and are always being engulfed by our karmic vision, we can be overwhelmed by the consequences of past actions and lose that recognition, ending up going through a hellish experience totally oblivious to Dzogchen's existence. Do you think that karma lost its function just because you read a few things about Dzogchen and made a small progress? You'll have another thing coming if you do, mate.
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