Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Anders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:39 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Pursuit spiritual happiness or making such pursuit (his and that of others) into a fantasy sided by a business.
My take, not always shared, is that when some people feel disappointed with samsara they turn their attention for a way out. If instead of a real path they find those "feel good" neo advaitan" or, broader, "new agish" self tailored paths, they just dress samsara with a new mask, one much harder to recognize and remove. So they waste a life thinking they are doing what they aren't.
It's like a drug. Even though it makes you feel good, it damages your health. The problem with these fantasist paths is that. While you think you're going somewhere, you stay exactly where you are, stuck in a golden cage instead of freeing yourself. If you take the cage for a palace, you may even like it there and the consequences of this may extend beyond one single lifetime, which is saddening.


Buddhism is a popular comfort zone for many such people too. And of course, there are very few who think of themselves that way. We all pretend we are somewhere on the road to liberation.

If they live lives of harmlessness and do good to others, there's nothing damaging in it, imo.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Anders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:41 pm

MrDistracted wrote:
samdrup wrote:Apart from the whole 'self appointed guru bs', he's also extremely tedious, It's excruciating to listen to, not helped by the permanent, inane grin. There's a video on you tube of him and some British guy (who has also 'figured it all out') sitting in Amsterdam talking complete gibberish, it embarrassing.


In a coffee shop?


haha, I only just realised that wasn't mentioned in the post but that was instinctively what I imagined.
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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:54 pm

Anders Honore wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Pursuit spiritual happiness or making such pursuit (his and that of others) into a fantasy sided by a business.
My take, not always shared, is that when some people feel disappointed with samsara they turn their attention for a way out. If instead of a real path they find those "feel good" neo advaitan" or, broader, "new agish" self tailored paths, they just dress samsara with a new mask, one much harder to recognize and remove. So they waste a life thinking they are doing what they aren't.
It's like a drug. Even though it makes you feel good, it damages your health. The problem with these fantasist paths is that. While you think you're going somewhere, you stay exactly where you are, stuck in a golden cage instead of freeing yourself. If you take the cage for a palace, you may even like it there and the consequences of this may extend beyond one single lifetime, which is saddening.


Buddhism is a popular comfort zone for many such people too. And of course, there are very few who think of themselves that way. We all pretend we are somewhere on the road to liberation.

If they live lives of harmlessness and do good to others, there's nothing damaging in it, imo.

I beg to disagree.
People can go to school and flunk, but at least they have the opportunity to learn. Now, if they go to the mall thinking it's the same as going to school, we have a different scenario. Let's not forget that people join these paths because they want to avoid suffering and be happy. In a fake path, they are buying a lie.
I mean, if they are practicing something worthy, Dzogchen or not, that is always good, even if their practice is far from perfect. Not all students are A stundets, yet they manage to benefit themselves somehow. If they're hooked in someone's ego trip, that's really nasty. The more they'll excel at it, the worse it gets.

Plus, mistaking people by teaching them a fantasy that doesn't lead to liberation is not, in my opinion, not doing harm. It's doing one of the worse kinds of harm possible. People who look at humanity or sentient beings by a different prism don't see it as harmful, since they are used to see harm in different ways. So they don't take this phenomena of "new agish" as something troublesome. I differ and see it as something worrying. Fast food, consumerist mentality applied to spirituality, if you want. This is a problem and it's very damaging. The more "ego trips" we have around, the less chances people get of finding a real path. If you don't see this as very harmful, perhaps your solidity in the contemplation of the four thoughts that turn the mind to the Dharma should be strengthened, I'm sorry to say. You're perhaps failing to see how deep is the shit we're in and how valuable it is for someone to have a path that works.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Stewart » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Ha! You would probably get a better level of conversation in a coffeeshop, and more sense.

They are just affirming each others bs. If you listen, they're not actually saying anything at all, just total babble. Waste of time....and money if you're thick enough to give them any.

Ps. Good post DN
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby alpha » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:27 pm

Mr. Bentinho must've said at some point "let's create an institution that sells the idea of freedom".
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:52 pm

And that makes it alright?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Anders Honore wrote:
One gets the impression that if a Bodhisattva should emanate here in this saha world, be realised and start teaching, he would never be recognised as one by Buddhists unless he did so under a Buddhist banner using Buddhist terminology.



This is true, and I was even thinking this earlier myself... but... As jaded as we are by cult leaders and profiteering self-help gurus teaching total BS, it can be hard enough sometimes for people to even come to trust and develop faith in Buddhist teachers. At least once people have gained trust in the Buddha's teachings and in this or that Buddhist teacher, they can generally have some trust in the other teachers their own teacher vouches for, or teachers who are apparently teaching what they've already come to recognize as valid Buddha Dharma.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby trevor » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:
wayland wrote:Some pretty profound vids on YouTube by Bentinho Massaro.
I'm unsure what to make of them. Would you say that he is abiding in rigpa?
Is this a direct introduction to mind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-J5BjWb9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tij5PtEt ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWfcrA6 ... re=related
:namaste:



Not profound.
Not rigpa.
No.


I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:16 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:
One gets the impression that if a Bodhisattva should emanate here in this saha world, be realised and start teaching, he would never be recognised as one by Buddhists unless he did so under a Buddhist banner using Buddhist terminology.



This is true, and I was even thinking this earlier myself... but... As jaded as we are by cult leaders and profiteering self-help gurus teaching total BS, it can be hard enough sometimes for people to even come to trust and develop faith in Buddhist teachers. At least once people have gained trust in the Buddha's teachings and in this or that Buddhist teacher, they can generally have some trust in the other teachers their own teacher vouches for, or teachers who are apparently teaching what they've already come to recognize as valid Buddha Dharma.

Unlike Anders I'm not sure if that would be true, on the other hand, or at least that simple. There are people who teach under Buddhist terminology who are recognized as the fakes they are.
Realization and the path to realization bares signs that are not easy to mistake. It's acknowledged that other paths than the Buddhist one lead one to certain attainments. The meditative methods that predate Buddhism are seen as working tools. The view itself was corrected so that the practitioner could go beyond limitations imposed by eternalist/ nihilist views.
There's also another point. A real teacher can access your state. He knows your realization or lack of it. This is fundamental when it comes to choose a teacher. If he can't access your state, there will come a point where it will be very hard for him to help you any further.
If a real teacher can access your state, he can also access the state of someone teaching Dharma even if with a different name and terminology. That leads me to suspect that such person would be confirmed by real teachers. It's a small leap from that to being recognized by the masses.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby alpha » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:19 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:And that makes it alright?


the very polished and organized approach with the promise of an academy on the cards shows a lot of thought and deliberation.

The very structure of his bussiness speaks of less spontaneity and freedom and much more of contrivance.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:19 pm

trevor wrote:
I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.

If you don't mind me saying, there are lots of people who resonate with the must unbelievable bullshit in terms of spiritual paths. That's hardly an argument.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:20 pm

alpha wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:And that makes it alright?


the very polished and organized approach with the promise of an academy on the cards shows a lot of thought and deliberation.

The very structure of his bussiness speaks of less spontaneity and freedom and much more of contrivance.

Good point.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby heart » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:30 pm

trevor wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
wayland wrote:Some pretty profound vids on YouTube by Bentinho Massaro.
I'm unsure what to make of them. Would you say that he is abiding in rigpa?
Is this a direct introduction to mind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-J5BjWb9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tij5PtEt ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWfcrA6 ... re=related
:namaste:



Not profound.
Not rigpa.
No.


I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.


I feel the other way around, I would love to hear why what he teaches should be considered in any way related to rigpa or Dzogchen. So feel free to explain this trevor, I feel we deserve that.

/magnus
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:36 pm

trevor wrote:Some pretty profound vids on YouTube by Bentinho Massaro.
I'm unsure what to make of them. Would you say that he is abiding in rigpa?
Is this a direct introduction to mind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-J5BjWb9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tij5PtEt ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWfcrA6 ... re=related
:namaste:


I can paste what I wrote in http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3351&start=40#p27969: 1. Concering His Buddhism, check the basic buddhist teachings if are correct, for example Sunyata, where the quotes and so on?
2. Concerning Dzogchen check the lineage. He want to teach about Rigpa. Why nothing here about his lineage of Dzogchen if he really has it? When someone wants the very high teachings like Dzogchen, should check carefully the lineage, ask other teachers of Dzogchen about the teacher you wanted to learn from, and so on.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Anders Honore wrote:One gets the impression that if a Bodhisattva should emanate here in this saha world, be realised and start teaching, he would never be recognised as one by Buddhists unless he did so under a Buddhist banner using Buddhist terminology.


and don't forget the "Grand Inquisitor" parable from the Brothers Karamazov:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Inquisitor
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Sönam » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:33 pm

:toilet: ... :zzz:
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby trevor » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:03 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
trevor wrote:
I would love to hear the reason why. There are people who resonate with Bentinho and I believe that they deserve more than just "Not profound" without any explanation.

If you don't mind me saying, there are lots of people who resonate with the must unbelievable bullshit in terms of spiritual paths. That's hardly an argument.

And those same people are honestly seeking for the way out of suffering. So (in my opinion) if we have bodhicitta, then we might wish to give them more than "Not profound" as an answer and back it up with some logical explanation at least.

heart wrote:I feel the other way around, I would love to hear why what he teaches should be considered in any way related to rigpa or Dzogchen. So feel free to explain this trevor, I feel we deserve that.
/magnus

I don't know if it should or shouldn't be considered related to rigpa or Dzogchen. Namdrol wrote "Not rigpa" and I am curious why.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Mariusz wrote:2. Concerning Dzogchen check the lineage. He want to teach about Rigpa. Why nothing here about his lineage of Dzogchen if he really has it? When someone wants the very high teachings like Dzogchen, should check carefully the lineage, ask other teachers of Dzogchen about the teacher you wanted to learn from, and so on.


I didn't notice anywhere where he is saying he is teaching about "rigpa", nor does he use the word "Dzogchen", both of which are Tibetan words. He is advocating that people take a fresh look at what actually is, without conceptual overlays as much as possible. How can this possibly be a bad thing?

But it brings us back to one of my original points: to me there is a big difference between saying "one can discover one's real nature using the Dzogchen system" and saying "one can discover one's real nature only by using the Dzogchen system". While I believe the first is true, to me the second is brain-dead. So if it boils down to people who believe #2 rejecting anything that does not fit their fundamentalist mindset, thats not only retarded, its not even Buddhist in the original sense. Maybe we really can say, after Nietzsche, "there was only one Buddhist, and he reached enlightenment under the bo tree because he put aside all second-hand conceptual structures and looked."
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:15 pm

As long as you are able to show us a system that effectively delivers the same results of Dzogchen, that's fine.
So far I've never seen one that convinced me. Dzogchen is a name for a method that delivers a certain result. If there's another method with a different name that brings the same results, I sure would like to know it. Can you point one and support such claim or are we to stay in the realm of "what ifs"?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:16 pm

And those same people are honestly seeking for the way out of suffering. So (in my opinion) if we have bodhicitta, then we might wish to give them more than "Not profound" as an answer and back it up with some logical explanation at least.

No problem there. But you understand that Namdrol doesn't have the obligation to do so.
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