Nasreddīn Hodja

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Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:23 pm

Reaching enlightenment
Nasreddin was walking in the bazaar with a large group of followers. Whatever Nasreddin did, his followers immediately copied. Every few steps Nasreddin would stop and shake his hands in the air, touch his feet and jump up yelling "Hu Hu Hu!". So his followers would also stop and do exactly the same thing. One of the merchants, who knew Nasreddin, quietly asked him: "What are you doing my old friend? Why are these people imitating you?" "I have become a Sufi Sheikh," replied Nasreddin. "These are my Murids (spiritual seekers); I am helping them reach enlightenment!" "How do you know when they reach enlightenment?" "That’s the easy part! Every morning I count them. The ones who have left – have reached enlightenment!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby AdmiralJim » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 am

I like the sound of this guy..........would have been good banter
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Aemilius » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:24 am

Have you heard of Oscar Idhazo, a south-american born teacher of a sufi school of knowledge? He was famous for a while in 1970's. He moved to the United States and founded a Sufi School named Arica there. They use the sacred word HU, and also the sacred dance that Nasruddin is talking about. The syllable Hu is most likely same as the syllable Hung, because linguistically Hung is a long Huu combined with anusvara. And we have the Song of Hung for example in Dorje Dolod practice. Is it still funny?

Here is more about Arica and Oscar Idhazo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School
http://www.arica.org/
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:38 pm

You are even funnier than Nasreddin is and I won't even start on this Oscar Idhazo character!

Phat! Phat! Phat!

One of the neighbors found Nasreddin scattering crumbs all around his house.
"Why are you doing that?" he asked.
"I'm keeping the tigers away," replied Nasreddin.
"But there aren't any tigers around here," said the neighbor.
"That's right," said Nasreddin. "You see how well it works?"
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Aemilius » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:01 am

gregkavarnos wrote:You are even funnier than Nasreddin is and I won't even start on this Oscar Idhazo character!

Phat! Phat! Phat!

One of the neighbors found Nasreddin scattering crumbs all around his house.
"Why are you doing that?" he asked.
"I'm keeping the tigers away," replied Nasreddin.
"But there aren't any tigers around here," said the neighbor.
"That's right," said Nasreddin. "You see how well it works?"


Why not ? Are you afraid that you would understand his teaching, and admire his personality?
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:16 am

Nasreddin Khodja commanded his disciples, when he sneezed, to salute him by clapping their hands and crying out: "Haïr Ollah, Khodja," that is "Prosperity to thee, O Master!" Now it came to pass that on one of the days the bucket fell into the well [...] he descended, caught the bucket, and the boys were already pulling him up, when, just as he was drawing near the edge of the well, he chanced to sneeze. Whereupon they, mindful of the master's behest, let go the rope and, clapping their hands in high glee, cried out in chorus: "Haïr Ollah, Khodja," Nasreddin was precipitated violently into the well, bruising himself against the sides. [...] "Well, boys, it was not your fault, but mine: too much honour is no good thing for man."
I think you need to take some lessons from the man! ie Stop being so haughty and projecting your attitutde onto others! You really believe that I don't admire Nasreddin Hodjas character? I post original Sufi teacvhings and you talk to me about a new age South American? Up until my fathers generation, the tales of Nasreddin were part of Greek popular culture, especially up in the North of Greece. My mothers side of the family (the same with my mother in laws family) were born and raised in what is now Turkey and grew up with these stories. It took a whole generation of nationalist wars, civil wars and juntas to destroy this (shared) aspect of our culture.
Knowledge is like the carrot, few know by looking at the green top that the best part, the orange part, is there. Like the carrot, if you don't work for it, it will wither away and rot. And finally, like the carrot, there are a great many donkeys and jackasses that are associated with it.

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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:47 pm

It has been suggested that Ichazo "either came under the influence of the school that taught G.I. Gurdjieff or, at least, studied under students of Gurdjieff." Ichazo, however, has denied any connection between his and Gurdjieff's teachings (http://www.arica.org/articles/trletter.cfm). Some writers in the Enneagram of Personality field have claimed that the enneagram figure is a Sufi symbol. Although the symbolism of the number 9 is ancient, there does not appear to be any evidence for the enneagram figure before Gurdjieff in Sufism or elsewhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Aemilius » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:55 am

I can't see why eneagram is brought in? I have no interest for it. Idries Shah says that it has a sufi origin, in some form, if that is important. Do we need to use the label "New Age" in this context? We don't need to take it for granted that labeling a person "new age" means that he is worse than the "tradition" or "old age" ? -Or how do you call it, the non-new age thing ?
Buddha Gautama certainly was New Age in His days, because he rejected the Vedas, was outside Brahmin caste, rejected the caste system altogether, accepted even outcastes in his teaching & community, he rejected the hidden or secret teaching (which was traditional in brahmanism), rejected the principle of hereditary rule in Sangha and advocated democracy. In the sravakayana sutras he even rejected the principle of lineageholders!
Indeed, He was worse than New Age, he was New Age combined with Anarchism, anti-brahmanism, atheism, democracy etc...
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:27 pm

Aemilius wrote:Do we need to use the label "New Age" in this context? We don't need to take it for granted that labeling a person "new age" means that he is worse than the "tradition" or "old age" ? -Or how do you call it, the non-new age thing ?
Let me give you an example. My girlfriend is really into sufi whirling and never misses a chance to practice when "teachers" come here or when she goes to Athens. Now I always ask her what is the teachers lineage? Who did they learn the techniques from? Is the teacher a Muslim? etc... Now my girlfriend gets pissed off at me and can not understand why I asked these questions until one day (spooky music kicks in to set up next scene)...

A teacher shows up here in Mytilene (my grilfriend normally practices with a (suspicious, for me) group in Athens), Greek guy, claims he's from Istanbul. So off goes my girlfrined to the lesson and comes back a few hours later and I start to grill her again. She tells me that the guy said that whirling is not an Islamic practice (like Medieval Islamic Mysticism just took a dive out the window). Okay, maybe it is a pre-Islamic technique that was later incorporated into Mevelevi (and other schools) of Mystical Islam. The question that arises for me is: Why it has not been reported as a technique outside of Islam?

But wait a second, if the guy teaches it outside of Islam then what of the Dhikr (rememberance of Allah) which is an integral part of the ritual? Oh, that goes out the window too. Okay so what about Sama (listening) then? I mean the technique was apparently invented by Rumi when he "heard" the dhikr "la ilaha ilallah" in the sound of goldsmiths beating out metal and started to dance in time to their rhythm. Oh, that goes as well? And the symbolism of the outfits and movements:
In the symbolism of the Sema ritual, the semazen's camel's hair hat (sikke) represents the tombstone of the ego; his wide, white skirt represents the ego's shroud. By removing his black cloak, he is spiritually reborn to the truth. At the beginning of the Sema, by holding his arms crosswise, the semazen appears to represent the number one, thus testifying to God's unity. While whirling, his arms are open: his right arm is directed to the sky, ready to receive God's beneficence; his left hand, upon which his eyes are fastened, is turned toward the earth. The semazen conveys God's spiritual gift to those who are witnessing the Sema. Revolving from right to left around the heart, the semazen embraces all humanity with love. The human being has been created with love in order to love. Mevlâna Jalâluddîn Rumi says, "All loves are a bridge to Divine love. Yet, those who have not had a taste of it do not know!"
Gone!!!

And then to cap it all off the guy taught them to spin clockwise instead of anticlockwise!!!

Well, we finally found out where he learnt to whirl: Osho!!!

Now, can you please tell me why the New Age is a crock of shit?
Buddha Gautama certainly was New Age in His days, because he rejected the Vedas, was outside Brahmin caste, rejected the caste system altogether, accepted even outcastes in his teaching & community, he rejected the hidden or secret teaching (which was traditional in brahmanism), rejected the principle of hereditary rule in Sangha and advocated democracy. In the sravakayana sutras he even rejected the principle of lineageholders!
Indeed, He was worse than New Age, he was New Age combined with Anarchism, anti-brahmanism, atheism, democracy etc...
Buddha was a spiritual revolutionary, he overturned the whole Brahmanic system. His theory of anatman and dependent origination was not an attempt to bring together dipartate elements of various systems in order to appease the ego (like the New Age), but an attempt to exit the cycle of Samsara.

So, for me, New Age = same Old Self serving bullshit. Does the description of Traditional Sufism I gave above fit into the genre of New Age? What do you reckon? Oh, before I forget, in many Islamic countries Buddhism survived by incorporating into and being protected by Sufis. And just to be clear, Sufis, historically, have been persecuted by their more orthodox Islamic brothers of both the Shiite and Sunni branches.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Stewart » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:46 pm

Very interesting Greg,

I think the term 'New Age' refers to the 'Age of Aquarius', and all the hotch potch of spiritual beliefs people try to splice together..... BS in other words. Rather than just sincerely practicing a tradition, whilst respecting others, much like Greg is doing with Sufism.

'Hu' = Hung = a connection with Dorje Drolod, gibberish.
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:57 pm

A man climbed up a tree but couldn't get back down. He asked the help of the passers-by. Nasreddin Hodja happened to be there too and said that he could help. He found a long rope and threw one end of it to the man up on the tree.
`Tie this around your waist!' he said.
`What are you doing Hodja Effendi?' the others wanted to interfere, `You cannot rescue a man from a tree like that.'
`Trust me,' the Hodja tried to calm them down, `this method is tested and true.' Once the man wrapped one end of the rope around his waist and made a strong knot, Nasreddin Hodja pulled the man down amidst cries of the watching crowd. The man fell on the ground with a huge thump and was badly hurt.
`Hodja Effendi, we warned you. Look what you have done.' the crowd said.
`I once saved a man with this exact same method,' the Hodja explained, `but I cannot remember if it was from a tree or from a water well.'

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One day the Hodja collected sprigs and twigs in the woods and tied them into a bundle. He was going to use them as fire wood in his home. After he finished loading his donkey, he started to doubt if these useless branches were going to burn well. He decided to try, just a tiny corner of the bundle on the donkey's back. But as soon as he lit the match, the sprigs caught fire and with the help of the blowing wind, the entire batch started to burn on the back of the poor donkey. The unfortunate animal, frightened, started to run away. Nasreddin Hodja, feeling terribly guilty, thought he should give the pitiable creature a little advice.
`If I were you,' he yelled from behind, `I would run towards the lake.'
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:02 pm

Nasrudin used to take a donkey across the frontier every day, with the panniers loaded with straw. Since he admitted to being a smuggler when he trudged home every night, the frontier guards searched him again and again. They searched his person, staffed the straw, steeped it in water, even burned it from time to time.... One of the customs officers met him years later.
"You can tell me now, Nasrudin," he said. "Whatever was it that you were smuggling, and we could never catch you out?"
"Donkeys," said Nasrudin.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:50 pm

One day Hodja was walking along with his donkey near a cliff face wen the donkey lost its balance, slipped and fell over the cliffs edge. The poor animal plummeted to its death at the bottom of the cliff. Hodja looked down at the broken corpse of the donkey for a while and then said: "Apparently it had learned how to fly, but did not know how to land properly."
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:25 am

Probably the most classic one:


One day Nasreddin Hodja and his young son were on their way to the market. The Hodja was riding his donkey and his son was walking beside him. As they travelled such, they heard a couple of villagers who happened to be passing by, speak disapprovingly about them.

`Look at our Hodja Effendi,' one said to the other, `he is comfortably riding on his donkey and letting his little boy walk along. Shame on the Hodja for making the boy suffer like that!' When Nasreddin Hodja heard this, he wanted to rectify what was perceived as his selfishness. He put his son on the donkey and he started to walk beside. Shortly after, they met another couple of villagers.

`Look at the Hodja and his son!' they said, `These are the times we are living in. A young boy is riding on the donkey and his poor old father is sweating to keep the pace. Today's children have no respect for their parents.' Nasreddin Hodja found some reason in this comment and thought of another remedy. They both got off of the donkey and started to walk beside it. A little while later, a group of villagers, also going to the market, approached the procession of the Hodja, the son and the donkey, all walking one after the other.

`This Hodja Effendi and his son have no minds, whatsoever.' they whispered amongst themselves, `They are both beating on their feet and the donkey is strolling along. Don't these people know what a donkey is for?' Hodja heard this and thought they had a point. The solution was clear. Both he and his son sat on the donkey. As they continued their trip this way, thinking that they have finally complied with all the opinions of their fellow villagers, they met another of their acquaintances. He was not very happy to see both the Hodja and the boy on a scrawny donkey.

`Hodja Effendi,' he yelled, `don't you know no mercy? How is this poor little animal supposed to carry two people? The donkey is also Allah's creation, have some pity.' Nasreddin Hodja agreed with this last remark as well. What were they to do? He shouldered the front body of the donkey and his son took on the back part, and they carried the donkey to the market place.


"Wikipedia" wrote:The miller, his son and the donkey is a widely dispersed fable, number 721 in the Perry Index. Though it may have ancient analogues, the earliest extant version is in the work of the 13th century Arab writer Ibn Said. There are many eastern versions of the tale and in Europe it was included in a number of Mediaeval collections. Since then it has been frequently included in collections of Aesop's fables as well as the influential Fables of Jean de la Fontaine.


In Anacalypsis, the early 19th Century Druid and Master Mason Godfrey Higgins wrote:Page 733

… I think when, in the latter part of this book, my reader shall have seen the whole development of the ancient doctrine of Wisdom, he will no longer be at a loss for a reason why Mohamedism prevailed in the seventh century over the base Christianism which was then taught to the vulgar by its priests.

… there is one fine work come down to us, extremely beautiful, the simplicity of which is in perfect keeping with the contemplative icon of divine wisdom, called Buddha; with the simplicity of the circular temples of Stonehenge, Dipaldenha, and the Pyramids; with the simplicity of the doctrine of the Trimurti, and the renewal of Cycles, &c., &c., &c.; and that is the work called the Fables of Æsop or Lockman.*

* See Univ. Hist. Vol. XVIII. p.401; see also D'Herbelot, in the article Lokman; Nimrod, II. p.660.

Page 734

He is said to have lived in the time of Heber, of David, and of Solomon : and to have been a Jew, that is, of the tribe of Ioudi or Judah. He is claimed by the Greeks, the Jews, the Arabians, the Persians, the Ethiopians, and the Indians. Much has been written about him. I believe the fables of Æsop are the fables of the SoFia and of Lockman, of L'hkm, .,(- lhkm, the wise. His residence, if he ever lived, probably was in Oudia. The nations are all right, because they are the fables of Wisdom, and they all had the doctrine of Wisdom. In Arabia there was a tribe of Lochmians whose general name was Mondar.* They were descended from Lakhm, the son of Am-ru, the son of Saba. Their kingdom lasted 600 years. The words Lochman, Mondar, Lakhm, Am-ru, Saba, and their 600-year kingdom, can want no explanation for any person who has read this book. They evidently bespeak the universal mythos.
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:59 am

What exactly is your point Lhug-Pa?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:24 pm

I wanted to post more, but couldn't find the other information, so didn't have time to further supplement what I posted here (regarding how Nasreddin, Æsop (Lockman?), Sufism, Islam, and Buddhism are possibly interrelated).

Anyhow, before Blavatsky and Gurdjieff there was Godfrey Higgins. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:11 pm

Their interelation has to do with the fact that they are all projected via, or produced by the human mind. So what? That means that Buddhism, Taoism and Fascism are also related. So what?

That there will be a degree of syncretism between Ancient Greek popular culture (Aesop) and Medieval Persian/Seljuk/Arab popular culture (Nasreddin) is to be expected given the proximity of the populations. Same with that of Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek culture. But again: So what?

It is obvious that not all the stories ascribed to Nasreddin actually had anything to do with him and that his person was merely a medium through which to express popular wisdom, but... (I won't repeat the question again).

Shared material circumstances/physical realities amongst vastly varied human groups, plus shared capacities as humans, leads to accounts that are incredibly similar and to nuances that are incredibly specific. That does not mean that they are interrelated in any direct manner. It also does not mean that they are the same thing (or their meaning is reduced to a common denominator) the nuances in difference are as important as the underlying similarities. The abovementioned story about the guy trapped in the tree attests to that.

The differences betray as much as the similarities do, they should not be ignored in the name of "feel-good-ecumenism".
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:48 pm

I've more thoughts on this Gregkavarnos, although not right at the moment.

Just saying that I'm not meaning to leave you hanging here. :anjali:
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:27 pm

An Iranian gave Hodja letter that he had received from a friend back home and asked Hodja to read it to him. Hodja looked at the letter. It was in Persian and the handwriting was terrible. So he told the man: "Have somebody else read it"
The man insisted.
"Listen!" said Hodja : "I don't know Persian and even if it were in Turkish, the writing is so bad that I still wouldn't be able to read it." He explained.
The Iranian became furious.
"You are wearing a huge robe and turban, but you can't even read a simple letter. You should be ashamed of yourself!"
Hodja took off his robe and turban and gave them to the man.
"If one can do anything by wearing a robe and a turban, then there! You wear them and read the letter yourself!" He replied.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Nasreddīn Hodja

Postby Aemilius » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:28 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Now, can you please tell me why the New Age is a crock of shit?
So, for me, New Age = same Old Self serving bullshit. Does the description of Traditional Sufism I gave above fit into the genre of New Age? What do you reckon? Oh, before I forget, in many Islamic countries Buddhism survived by incorporating into and being protected by Sufis. And just to be clear, Sufis, historically, have been persecuted by their more orthodox Islamic brothers of both the Shiite and Sunni branches.
:namaste:


One teacher "Osho" is not all teachers in the " New Age", it is really that simple. One buddhist is not all buddhists. If one buddhist kicks a dog people say "all buddhists are bad!" It may sound idiotic but that's how it goes.

In my early days, that is in late 1960's and early 1970's, my first buddhist book was Allan Watts's Zen. After that with a school friend we combed through all the libraries over a large area and found one dozen more books on Zen, by T.D. Suzuki and others. In one library there was a good collection of Idries Shah's books, so I was quite early introduced to sufism also.

The persecution is still happening: in Irak after the fall of Saddam they soon whipped and jailed about one hundred sufis, and their lawyers too!!

Why do we trust the "lineage"? How can we be sure about it?
You nevertheless accept innovation in matters spiritual, don't you? If that is old enough, like the Buddha.
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