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 Post subject: Jax's Dzogchen
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Longchenpa makes clear that "direct Introduction" is a fallacy, as the Dharmakaya has never gone out of itself. He also states there is no such thing as " recognition" as one has never left the Natural State. A forgetful ego-self has arisen in the unchanging Dharmakaya. The ego seeks recognition and realization. Awareness has no possible benefit from a direct introduction or the absence of one. Can't you see your existing immediate Awareness is unchanging? Can't you see that your current Awareness is beyond "cause and effect" efforts of such things as direct introductions? Can't you see Awaeeness has not and cannot be obstructed? How can the Dharmakaya be obstructed? Awareness is fully functioning in it's own perfection in each moment. It is engaged in the play of generating a "yidam" that is no more than a character in a dream. That's the " self" that experiences samsara. It's purely a mental construction. One is perfect, Awareness is self perfect. Two perfect, it's samsaric projections are perfect. This wisdom cannot be attained by some seeker... Awareness has never been in dualism.... This is a much more accurate and direct pointing out by Lonchenpa, then what is being offered today in current Dzogchen.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Longchenpa makes clear that "direct Introduction" is a fallacy, as the Dharmakaya has never gone out of itself. .


Where does Longchenpa make this claim?

Quote:
He also states there is no such thing as " recognition" as one has never left the Natural State. A forgetful ego-self has arisen in the unchanging Dharmakaya. The ego seeks recognition and realization. Awareness has no possible benefit from a direct introduction or the absence of one. Can't you see your existing immediate Awareness is unchanging? Can't you see that your current Awareness is beyond "cause and effect" efforts of such things as direct introductions? Can't you see Awaeeness has not and cannot be obstructed? How can the Dharmakaya be obstructed? Awareness is fully functioning in it's own perfection in each moment. It is engaged in the play of generating a "yidam" that is no more than a character in a dream. That's the " self" that experiences samsara. It's purely a mental construction. One is perfect, Awareness is self perfect. Two perfect, it's samsaric projections are perfect. This wisdom cannot be attained by some seeker... Awareness has never been in dualism....


Are you attributing the rest of this to Longchenpa too?

Quote:
This is a much more accurate and direct pointing out by Lonchenpa, then what is being offered today in current Dzogchen


I take it you've enough experience in contemporary Dzogchen to make such a claim in a substantive way. Describe that experience: under whom have you studied? Which teacher's teachings are you criticizing here?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:59 pm 
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by Jax » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:29 pm

Longchenpa makes clear that "direct Introduction" is a fallacy, as the Dharmakaya has never gone out of itself. He also states there is no such thing as " recognition" as one has never left the Natural State. A forgetful ego-self has arisen in the unchanging Dharmakaya. The ego seeks recognition and realization. Awareness has no possible benefit from a direct introduction or the absence of one. Can't you see your existing immediate Awareness is unchanging? Can't you see that your current Awareness is beyond "cause and effect" efforts of such things as direct introductions? Can't you see Awaeeness has not and cannot be obstructed? How can the Dharmakaya be obstructed? Awareness is fully functioning in it's own perfection in each moment. It is engaged in the play of generating a "yidam" that is no more than a character in a dream. That's the " self" that experiences samsara. It's purely a mental construction. One is perfect, Awareness is self perfect. Two perfect, it's samsaric projections are perfect. This wisdom cannot be attained by some seeker... Awareness has never been in dualism.... This is a much more accurate and direct pointing out by Lonchenpa, then what is being offered today in current Dzogchen.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Uhm . . . repeating one's posts clarifies misunderstandings? :thinking:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Sorry, got double posted by accident. I thought it didn't post. I happen to have the Lonchenpa quotes here on my table from the Treasury. I will post them in a few minutes, book, page and paragraph. It will clarify the correct view of this Ati that is beyond "cause and effect" approaches and practices. I have been a student of Dzogchen since 1978. Norbu transmitted the Semde, Longde and mangagde teachings to me several times along with Yang-Ti. I also received Yeshe Lama transmissions from a Lama of Dudjum Rinpoche lineage for thogal in 1985. I received pith Ati instructions from Lama Wangdor in the 80's. I received Bon transmissions for Heart Drops of Dharmakaya from Lopon 4 years ago, for trekchod and . I have received many tantric teachings and empowerments for Mahamudra, gTumo from both Nyingma and Kagyu teachers including Trungpa, Kalu and Kyabchab Rinpoche's and Sabchyu Rinpoche in Nepal. So... I will forward the quotes in a few... Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:05 am 
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From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longhenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."

Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."

These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:29 am 
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Jax wrote:
by Jax » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:29 pm

Longchenpa makes clear that "direct Introduction" is a fallacy, as the Dharmakaya has never gone out of itself. He also states there is no such thing as " recognition" as one has never left the Natural State. A forgetful ego-self has arisen in the unchanging Dharmakaya. The ego seeks recognition and realization. Awareness has no possible benefit from a direct introduction or the absence of one. Can't you see your existing immediate Awareness is unchanging? Can't you see that your current Awareness is beyond "cause and effect" efforts of such things as direct introductions? Can't you see Awaeeness has not and cannot be obstructed? How can the Dharmakaya be obstructed? Awareness is fully functioning in it's own perfection in each moment. It is engaged in the play of generating a "yidam" that is no more than a character in a dream. That's the " self" that experiences samsara. It's purely a mental construction. One is perfect, Awareness is self perfect. Two perfect, it's samsaric projections are perfect. This wisdom cannot be attained by some seeker... Awareness has never been in dualism.... This is a much more accurate and direct pointing out by Lonchenpa, then what is being offered today in current Dzogchen.


Alas! Though I myself am devoid of straying, from my dynamism straying emerges. Nature having arisen unobstructedly and unceasingly from the unchanging Ground, dimmed awareness is naturally emergent from within compassionate resonance's indeterminacy. As an analogy, although clouds form in the sky, it isn't the case that the clouds genuinely exist there but rather they emerge adventitiously. Just so, dimmed awareness is not present at all within the Ground - dimmed awareness emerges from spontaneous presence arising in the manner of compassionate resonance, which comes to be termed "an abiding reality of the Ground's spontaneous presence". Furthermore, this is present as a great indeterminate manifestation.
- excerpt from The Exquisite Auspiciousness Tantra

From within the lighting-up of the great differentiation,
Both existence and non-existence emerge;
The common site is termed the foundation of straying,
And since it becomes polluted with dimmed awareness
That which is known itself appears to be stained.
- excerpt from The Garland of Precious Pearls Tantra

Therein, the Ground of indeterminate spontaneous presence
"Strays" through the pollution of this triune dimmed awareness,
quartet of conditions, and cognitive energy.
- excerpt from The Conch Shell Lettered Tantra


So straying does seem to manifest, and therefore avidyā certainly appears to exist. From the perspective of avidyā a process does take place, though when buddhahood manifests it is known innately that the process was illusory. Honestly, I initially made this same mistake and got my card pulled on here when I first started posting... and I see why now. Even though ones true nature is inherently perfected and wholly incapable of being stained in any way, via the manifestation of innate/imputed ignorance this nature is conceived to be fragmented into the dichotomy of self and other. For this reason ignorance does proliferate and build from the ground up... to say that ignorance does not exist, and that there's nothing to do... would mean that one's dimmed and dichotomous awareness is in fact the full fledged immaculate gnosis achieved through the implementation of anu/ati-yoga and the other vehicles, and this is not the case. So while you're right that this awareness ever-present in one's experience is at base perfect and is fundamentally endowed with the properties/characteristics you mentioned, it is dimmed, and it is obscured by afflictions from the perspective of one trapped in delusion. So unless action is taken one remains in ignorance (even though this is ultimately a falsity once awareness recognizes it's own display and buddhahood manifests). It's a catch 22 and requires skillful means to achieve, because you're right, if one acts from the personal and seeks a goal in time, one remains forever trapped, but at the same time if one does nothing they also remain trapped.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:44 am 
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From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longhenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."

Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."

These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:55 am 
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Jax wrote:
From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longhenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."


So the purpose of this is to show that it is already this present awareness, there's no need for one to strive to achieve something else in time. That being said, there are still habitual tendencies which serve to reify the presence of this pseudo-self which seeks liberation. And normally that pseudo-self posits that liberation is something to be "achieved" as in an end which is reached, which it is in a sense, but not through the effort normally employed and propagated in the lower vehicles. Liberation comes when it is innately discovered that there never was anyone trapped in "samsara" to begin with. So therefore what is shown is the transcendence of view and meditation where nothing need be done regarding realization because if one remains in "the view" (aka rigpa as opposed to sems), the meditation (or non-meditation) takes care of itself. The enlightened nucleus wakes up and begins to recognize it's own display and all one has to do is rest in awareness, as awareness. When knowledge dawns it is seen that the obscurations only ever existed due to habitual imputation (and that may not ever occur because in that fruition, time is not present and neither is the individual who would fall under the spell of imputation to posit such a claim). He's using a bit of skillful means here and presenting an alternate approach to the "process".

Jax wrote:
Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."


He's saying this because the 'single point' one "decides on" is this ever-present awareness one is endowed with, yet again, due to habitual tendencies it can remain obscured... and become apparently re-obscured if identification with sems continues to dominate experience. Once it (rigpa) is recognized then one remains in that unobstructed awareness without relying on anything whatsoever. And it requires "no effort" because of the fact that one does not experience separation from the essence even for an instant. Even though, at the same time it requires much effort to break through the habits which bind (but this effort doesn't entail effort by the individual, it is just effort asserted and re-asserted to relax in uncontrived natural awareness which in fact does become completely effortless after some time). To say that is realized or perceived is merely a use of conventional expression because the realization or perceiving would be predicated on the separate "I" or "me" to realize it or perceive it, and the "I" is a convention which lacks inherent existence.

Jax wrote:
These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!


This is true.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:53 am 
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Jax wrote:
Sorry, got double posted by accident. I thought it didn't post. I happen to have the Lonchenpa quotes here on my table from the Treasury. I will post them in a few minutes, book, page and paragraph. It will clarify the correct view of this Ati that is beyond "cause and effect" approaches and practices. I have been a student of Dzogchen since 1978. Norbu transmitted the Semde, Longde and mangagde teachings to me several times along with Yang-Ti. I also received Yeshe Lama transmissions from a Lama of Dudjum Rinpoche lineage for thogal in 1985. I received pith Ati instructions from Lama Wangdor in the 80's. I received Bon transmissions for Heart Drops of Dharmakaya from Lopon 4 years ago, for trekchod and . I have received many tantric teachings and empowerments for Mahamudra, gTumo from both Nyingma and Kagyu teachers including Trungpa, Kalu and Kyabchab Rinpoche's and Sabchyu Rinpoche in Nepal. So... I will forward the quotes in a few... Thanks!


I rejoice in your good fortune to have made contact with such teachers as these.

Are you certain that your understanding (as evidenced by your claims on Longchenpa) is superior to these great masters?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:04 am 
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Jax wrote:
Longchenpa makes clear that "direct Introduction" is a fallacy, as the Dharmakaya has never gone out of itself. He also states there is no such thing as " recognition" as one has never left the Natural State.


The reason is exactely the opposite ... there is no re-cognition, because "one has never been before in the Natural State (rigpa)" ... if he would,, he would have stay in that state, and they would have been no reason/means to go somewhere else.

Quote:
A forgetful ego-self has arisen in the unchanging Dharmakaya. The ego seeks recognition and realization. Awareness has no possible benefit from a direct introduction or the absence of one. Can't you see your existing immediate Awareness is unchanging? Can't you see that your current Awareness is beyond "cause and effect" efforts of such things as direct introductions? Can't you see Awaeeness has not and cannot be obstructed? How can the Dharmakaya be obstructed? Awareness is fully functioning in it's own perfection in each moment. It is engaged in the play of generating a "yidam" that is no more than a character in a dream. That's the " self" that experiences samsara. It's purely a mental construction. One is perfect, Awareness is self perfect. Two perfect, it's samsaric projections are perfect. This wisdom cannot be attained by some seeker... Awareness has never been in dualism.... This is a much more accurate and direct pointing out by Lonchenpa, then what is being offered today in current Dzogchen.


all that is good ... the problem is that you are deluded. Your view seems more yogachara than dzogchen.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:05 am 
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From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longhenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."

Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."

These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:38 am 
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Dude,

Instead of coming here and littering all our Dzogchen threads with duplicates of your misrepresentation of Longchenpa's words, why don't you leave the explanation of Dzogchen to those who have actually realized it?

Surely you don't mean to be telling us that we're all being duped by our Dzogchen gurus?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Well said.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Because you seem to appreciate Longchen Rabjam, and so I do ... from the Three Cycles on Natural Liberation (Rang-Grol sKor-gSum) :

"The utterly pure view has no extremes or center. It cannot be indicated by saying 'It is this,' nor is there in it any distinctions of height or width. ... (follow 10 pages of descriptions, including the non efforts of acceptance and rejection, and all what you reported from Longchen Rabjam, and much more) ... For example, even if one indicates by pointing, saying 'This is space,' it is not an object that can be seen, so it is merely a way of differentiating. The arising of realization through the kindness of the Lama is like the dispelling of darkness by the sun. The moment one sees all existents as Dharmakaya by instantaneous Intrinsic Awareness, Ignorance is turned into Primordial Wisdom and defilements into indications of the Five Primordial Wisdoms. ..."

but I'm not gonna run more after quotations ...

Sönam

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:51 pm 
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That's a bit of the problem with the DC... its very difficult for individuals to get the type of instruction that really cuts to the chase. So they end up settling for doing a lot of rituals and practices thinking this "Dzogchen". I had the good fortune in the early 80's of having a lot of contact personally with Norbu at several retreats as I became his private cook. We discussed all the essential "pointing out" and "direct introduction" topics in detail. Rigpa did suddenly present itself from a specific pointing out he did in a private conversation with me... where I couldn't stop laughing for over an hour... it was quite hilarious to realize all the rituals, mantras and practices had nothing to do with Rigpa at all... and that was exactly what he pointed out to me, because I was asking him about specific mantras and practices. The SMS didn't exist then. Norbu and I sat at a bar drinking beer together in California when he told me about his idea to perhaps launch the SMS program. He said it was not really normal to present Dzogchen in such an organized manner with centers and all, and that it was a bit against his nature. He asked me what I thought. I told him that I thought he shouldn't go the SMS route with centers and memberships etc. So we know how things went. Without that direct contact possible with Norbu, I would seek out Dzogchen teachers who have the time to meet with you one on one. The magic is in the live "exchange".


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Yes, Sonam, speaking from experience is preferred over "quoting others like parrots"... Residing as "thought-free" presence, the presence that has never had a thought, is very easy when settled within Itself. Teachers today make the easiest thing hopelessly complex, so students lose interest and leave the Dharma. Very few teachers today see the priorities... But then they have to run a business... don't they?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Jax wrote:
That's a bit of the problem with the DC... its very difficult for individuals to get the type of instruction that really cuts to the chase. So they end up settling for doing a lot of rituals and practices thinking this "Dzogchen". I had the good fortune in the early 80's of having a lot of contact personally with Norbu at several retreats as I became his private cook. We discussed all the essential "pointing out" and "direct introduction" topics in detail. Rigpa did suddenly present itself from a specific pointing out he did in a private conversation with me... where I couldn't stop laughing for over an hour... it was quite hilarious to realize all the rituals, mantras and practices had nothing to do with Rigpa at all... and that was exactly what he pointed out to me, because I was asking him about specific mantras and practices. The SMS didn't exist then. Norbu and I sat at a bar drinking beer together in California when he told me about his idea to perhaps launch the SMS program. He said it was not really normal to present Dzogchen in such an organized manner with centers and all, and that it was a bit against his nature. He asked me what I thought. I told him that I thought he shouldn't go the SMS route with centers and memberships etc. So we know how things went. Without that direct contact possible with Norbu, I would seek out Dzogchen teachers who have the time to meet with you one on one. The magic is in the live "exchange".


Good to know, but I think there are some flaws in your judgement of DC... if you do the practices after receiving transmission, you will eventually discover rigpa, even if you didn't during the public transmissions. Namkhai Norbu doesn't seem to concerned about the sort of issue I have raised here and so I think I was right not to originally care about this. But, I wanted to do the transmission as perfectly as possible, anyway. Just to check it off the list of possibilities.

I've just received transmission a bunch of times over the years and each year that goes by I understand things I can't put into words more and more. However, like one of the tales of the 84 Mahasiddhas I relate to, I am a bad and forgetful student. To prove the point, I forget which Mahasiddha it was exactly, but it made me feel good that there was one who actually said he forgets every damn thing he ever learns and so he was given an appropriate sadhana for his condition and he went on to achieve the "dakini's paradise." That's me in a nutshell.

Anyway, the mantras have some significance, obviously, or Mandarava wouldn't give Namkhai Norbu a whole practice which made him heal; how they work, how the mind works, well... those who should know aren't very good at explaining it to people who don't know. I think the fact that in the final analysis we use terms like "spontaneous" and "as it is" indicate that the why of existence can never be known, only the how. And HOW transmission occurs and HOW awareness ripens is by use of mantras or specific instructions followed in steps; even if the steps themselves end up being arbitrary and unimportant in themselves, their use leads to result.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Dude,

Instead of coming here and littering all our Dzogchen threads with duplicates of your misrepresentation of Longchenpa's words, why don't you leave the explanation of Dzogchen to those who have actually realized it?

Surely you don't mean to be telling us that we're all being duped by our Dzogchen gurus?


Jax considers himself a Dzogchen Guru, he gives direct introduction and instructions in Tögal. So probably he think he also have some realization.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Jax....

If you are still cooking and you are a professional cook then the only thing you are probably qualified to give advice on is food recipes.

Probably you should stick to your cooking..

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