Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mr. G » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:38 pm

trevor wrote:
In "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" - Book Two - The Practice of Trekcho - it says in the beginning

"First of all we should get into the right state for the essential ripening of the mind. For this purpose it is necessary to receive the initiation. However, if you come through this preliminary practice you will receive initiation with the practice itself


It just proves my point. It is necessary to receive initiation.

* Lopon comments that when you receive initiation it is to show you the natural state. Afterward you can check whether you received anything by seeing whether you then perfectly understand the natural state. However, if you do the preliminary practices you will see the natural state. So that is the initiation in itself."


I don't think that is to be taken literally.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Mr. G » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:41 pm

Jax wrote:You are confused my friend. Garab Dorje made clear the means of conveying Dzogchen: 1. Direct Introduction to the State. 2. All doubts resolved. 3. continuing in that State ( rigpa). There is no need for ANY empowerments.


Did you miss point 1?:

1. Direct Introduction to the State.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:53 am

Jax wrote:You are confused my friend. Garab Dorje made clear the means of conveying Dzogchen: 1. Direct Introduction to the State. 2. All doubts resolved. 3. continuing in that State ( rigpa). There is no need for ANY empowerments. Garab Dorje's view and insrtuctions trump all later deviations as is being incorrectly shared here. Likewise Karma Lingpa or Padmasambhava said "no antecedent or subsequent practices are necessary" regarding the direct introduction offered in the famous terma. People are attempting to reduce Awareness to some sort of attainable state by engaging in foolish empowerments that only apply to "cause and effect" approaches. All these beliefs are no more than confused conceptualizations grounded in dualistic mind (sem).


Your self is confused my friend, because to be introduced to your real nature is to be brought into the "state of the master", therefore there is no other way to be introduced than by a living master, life ... and it's, of course, not called an empowerment, but an introduction.
As to be introduce through books, wether Longchen Rabjam, what you introduce will be intellectual ideas that will directely go to sem ... nothing to do with the experience of discovering your true nature.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:10 am

From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longhenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."

Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."

These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:12 am

The State of the Master is your own present naked Awareness, not some imagined "other"...
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:52 pm

:zzz:
The reason Dzogchen was kept hidden are the misconceptions people like you end up making when they don't get it. You end up not practicing any kind of vehicle with exception of the self deluded yana. :|
Still, that's your right. What isn't your right is impinging that fantasy to others, you know? Even if you think you got it.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby heart » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Jax wrote:You are confused my friend. Garab Dorje made clear the means of conveying Dzogchen: 1. Direct Introduction to the State. 2. All doubts resolved. 3. continuing in that State ( rigpa). There is no need for ANY empowerments. Garab Dorje's view and insrtuctions trump all later deviations as is being incorrectly shared here. Likewise Karma Lingpa or Padmasambhava said "no antecedent or subsequent practices are necessary" regarding the direct introduction offered in the famous terma. People are attempting to reduce Awareness to some sort of attainable state by engaging in foolish empowerments that only apply to "cause and effect" approaches. All these beliefs are no more than confused conceptualizations grounded in dualistic mind (sem).


All empowerment's are actually designed to be direct introductions. In the Dzogchen tradition there are accordingly loads of empowerment's, both short and simple as well as long and complicated. Just read through the Rinchen Terdzö empowerment's http://orgyendorjeden.org/2010-2011-ODD-RT_Record.pdf . Atiyoga empowerment's start on page 101.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby MrDistracted » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:52 pm

Thanks Magnus!

I'm not so interested in people arguing about Dzogchen, but I have been looking for a list of Rinchen Terdzod empowerments, so for me this thread has come good...

Thanks again!
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby heart » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:41 pm

MrDistracted wrote:Thanks Magnus!

I'm not so interested in people arguing about Dzogchen, but I have been looking for a list of Rinchen Terdzod empowerments, so for me this thread has come good...

Thanks again!


You are most welcome, I up that with a list of the empowerment's from the Dam Ngak Dzö http://gdamsngagmdzod.tsadra.org/index. ... ingu_Tulku . The Dzogchen empowerment's are in the first two volumes.

These are the Mengakde empowerment's;


2. The elaborate empowerment manual "The net of Brahma".

Author: Longchen rabjam

pp 17-34

3. The elaborate mandala clarifying the levels of names.

Author: Longchen Rabjam

pp 35-38

4. Unelaborate empowerment called "Jewel Net".

Author: Longchen Rabjam

pp 39-62

5. Very unelaborate empowerment called "Lotus Net".

Author: Longchen Rabjam

pp 63-80

6. The ritual of offering the four word mandala Wish-fulfilling net".

Author: Longchen Rabjam

pp 81-86

7. Extremely unelaborate empowerment called "Net of Light".


/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Jax » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Magnus, what you posted is really swell, but I am not seeing any English translations for the reading public?
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby heart » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:08 pm

Jax wrote:Magnus, what you posted is really swell, but I am not seeing any English translations for the reading public?


No, what do you want the translation for?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:35 pm

It's funny to me when young guys become gurus. Did he get famous through YouTube or something? I see at least 50 people in the retreat photo on his website. At $70 per person per day, he's probably not really raking in the bucks, so I'm willing to believe it's a labor of love and he's really trying to help people... but, lol @ the idea he's figured it all out and we should be looking to him for advice. If he levitates and radiates colored lights, that's a different story....
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:45 pm

I find the kid interesting. Yes, he's young, but that in itself is neither here nor there. The question is what is he discussing? A lot of his talk of "awareness" could be taken as simple shes pa, but I ran across this passage in his online book, and I believe this shows that his understanding is deeper than that:

“My sense of self arises... I feel I am here, I am someone, I am present, I
am cognizant...” But if "I" can notice that this sense of self is arising, than
that implies two very important things:
1) That there is some subtler "space‟ for this sense to arise in, just like
everything else needs some sort of 'space' wider, subtler and more open
than itself to exist in, and;
2) That this deeper space is awareness itself: the awareness through
which I can say that "I am aware of this sense of self‟. There is something
beyond "me‟. Something that is free from, unaffected by, yet present in
the experience of my most basic sense of being here.
Because who is the I that can notice the sense of "me,‟ the sense of "being
someone‟ and the sense of "being present‟?
Both points refer to the same space/openness of awareness: That in which
all sensations arise and dissolve, is the same as that which is aware of
these senses.
All that arises in this space of self-knowing awareness, is ultimately one
with that aware space. Just like reflections in a mirror are nothing but
mirror.


when he says "the awareness through which I can say that "I am aware of this sense of self'" this is basically a knowledge of the basis, and therefore, rigpa. (IMO)

His case and others like it raise very interesting questions, such as does Dzogchen claim a kind of "no one comes to the father except through me" exclusivism, or is our real nature there for anyone to discover, regardless of their background? Of course, Dzogchen triumphalists will insist that you have to a "Buddhist" and then receive "introduction" from a Dzogchen lineage holder, in order to have any possibility of recognizing your own nature, but does such an attitude really have any basis in reality? If, as the Buddha is represented as saying "regardless whether Tathagatas arise or not, the dharma is the dharma", then it is claiming an objective status for truth and therefore it should be accessible to anyone who can discern it. Like a scientific truth, say, the earth revolving around the sun, does it make any sense to say that you have to learn this from Copernicus, and thats the only way you can legitimately discover this? No, he may have been the first to realize it, but now that knowledge is available to anyone through any number of avenues. For most people, it may take someone drawing their attention to their awareness that is always there anyway for them to notice it, but what difference does it make who it is who draws their attention to it? And if, then, one can take the further step and enter contemplation of that which is the ground beyond that awareness, then again, who cares who it was who first pointed it out to them?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby heart » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:08 pm

I am sorry gad rgyangs, the question is something that isn't particular to Dzogchen. All of Tibetan Buddhism depend on getting your empowerment/introduction from a realized lineage holder and then actually applying the practice, don't you agree?

Talk is cheap when it comes to these matters anyway, it is all bla bla bla to me. You choose your Guru by his glib talk or by the impact he actually have on you?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:17 am

heart wrote:I am sorry gad rgyangs, the question is something that isn't particular to Dzogchen. All of Tibetan Buddhism depend on getting your empowerment/introduction from a realized lineage holder and then actually applying the practice, don't you agree?

Talk is cheap when it comes to these matters anyway, it is all bla bla bla to me. You choose your Guru by his glib talk or by the impact he actually have on you?

/magnus


whoa someone got out of the wrong side of the bed today. :rolling:
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:30 am

Bentinho Massaro? :coffee:
I see only a handsome(?) boy who is playing with his camera............... :zzz:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Anders » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:38 am

padma norbu wrote:It's funny to me when young guys become gurus. Did he get famous through YouTube or something? I see at least 50 people in the retreat photo on his website. At $70 per person per day, he's probably not really raking in the bucks, so I'm willing to believe it's a labor of love and he's really trying to help people... but, lol @ the idea he's figured it all out and we should be looking to him for advice. If he levitates and radiates colored lights, that's a different story....


How is age an obstacle to him having it all figured out?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:31 am

Joshu said "If I meet a seven-year-old girl who is more accomplished than me, I want to learn from her; if I meet a seventy-year-old man who is less accomplished than me, I would like to teach him."
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:05 am

gad rgyangs wrote:Of course, Dzogchen triumphalists will insist that you have to a "Buddhist" and then receive "introduction" from a Dzogchen lineage holder, in order to have any possibility of recognizing your own nature, but does such an attitude really have any basis in reality? If, as the Buddha is represented as saying "regardless whether Tathagatas arise or not, the dharma is the dharma", then it is claiming an objective status for truth and therefore it should be accessible to anyone who can discern it. Like a scientific truth, say, the earth revolving around the sun, does it make any sense to say that you have to learn this from Copernicus, and thats the only way you can legitimately discover this? No, he may have been the first to realize it, but now that knowledge is available to anyone through any number of avenues. For most people, it may take someone drawing their attention to their awareness that is always there anyway for them to notice it, but what difference does it make who it is who draws their attention to it? And if, then, one can take the further step and enter contemplation of that which is the ground beyond that awareness, then again, who cares who it was who first pointed it out to them?


For people who have a connection to Dzogchen practice in past lives but didn't fully realize it, I find it plausible that they could have some degree of familiarity with that knowledge in this life without hearing of Dzogchen or meeting a master--even if that knowledge is not so precise and stable. But I feel strongly that they would flounder without a realized person to explain to them how to really bring out that knowledge for themselves and really gain precision and stability. Without such guidance, ordinary mind would almost certainly interfere too much and distract them from fully realizing their knowledge and integrating it in all areas of life.

And for everybody else--as in people who've never had Dzogchen training in past lives and none in this life--I cannot see spontaneous knowledge of the natural state happening. It is too right under one's nose to ever be noticed enough to gain the necessary familiarity. People are too caught up in objectifying outer appearances and sense data and inner mental experiences. Even if they train in some form of meditation in this life and actually gain some stability in the calm state, it is too easy to fixate on that calm, clear, merely empty state of mind at rest and miss the whole of what is really present at the core of experience.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:22 am

heart wrote:
Jax wrote:You are confused my friend. Garab Dorje made clear the means of conveying Dzogchen: 1. Direct Introduction to the State. 2. All doubts resolved. 3. continuing in that State ( rigpa). There is no need for ANY empowerments. Garab Dorje's view and insrtuctions trump all later deviations as is being incorrectly shared here. Likewise Karma Lingpa or Padmasambhava said "no antecedent or subsequent practices are necessary" regarding the direct introduction offered in the famous terma. People are attempting to reduce Awareness to some sort of attainable state by engaging in foolish empowerments that only apply to "cause and effect" approaches. All these beliefs are no more than confused conceptualizations grounded in dualistic mind (sem).


All empowerment's are actually designed to be direct introductions. In the Dzogchen tradition there are accordingly loads of empowerment's, both short and simple as well as long and complicated. Just read through the Rinchen Terdzö empowerment's http://orgyendorjeden.org/2010-2011-ODD-RT_Record.pdf . Atiyoga empowerment's start on page 101.

/magnus


Orgyen Dorje Den! I was invited to help make prayer wheels there today.. Vajrakilaya themed I believe... Couldn't make it though
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