Conditioned vs Unconditioned

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m0rl0ck
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Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by m0rl0ck »

Whats the difference? The heart sutra seems to equate the two. Is it just matter of viewpoint? Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?
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Huifeng
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by Huifeng »

m0rl0ck wrote:Whats the difference? The heart sutra seems to equate the two. Is it just matter of viewpoint? Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?
There are a few positions. My own understanding of what makes the best sense, is that found in Nagarjuna's commentary to the Prajnaparamita:

《大智度論》卷31〈1 序品〉:「離有為則無無為。所以者何?有為法實相即是無為」(CBETA, T25, no. 1509, p. 289, a16-18)

Apart from the conditioned, there is no unconditioned. Why? Because the true nature of conditioned dharmas is the unconditioned.

Now, as we know, the nature of the conditioned is that whatever is subject to arising is subject to cessation, dependent origination. This is the unconditioned. Also known as dharma-dhatu, suchness, dharmata, etc.

Knowing this, one abandons "self-view". This is stream-entry for sravakas, and non-regression for bodhisattvas.

Continuing to see this nature of dharmas, the bodhisattva amasses the other conditions for full awakening. Once amassed, they end the defilements, and attain the utmost, right and perfect enlightenment.

--

This is distinct from the hinayana teachings on the conditioned and unconditioned, where both are distinct dharmas. ie. matter and mind, etc. are conditioned dharmas; nirvana (etc.) are unconditioned dharmas. The two types are distinct and basically unrelated to each other.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?
Have a look also at this.... (with the standard Wikipedia caveat)

Saṃskāra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by m0rl0ck »

Thanks guys, these are both great sources. :bow:

Ven. Huifeng, do you have a link to the rest of that commentary? Is there a particular internet available commentary /translation you would recommend?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Huifeng
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by Huifeng »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?
Have a look also at this.... (with the standard Wikipedia caveat)

Saṃskāra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
This tends to suggest the position mentioned above, whereby various material and mental phenomena are "the conditioned", but then "nirvana" is some other "unconditioned" distinct and apart from them.

Whereas the Theravada and Sarvastivada took dependent origination to be conditioned, the other schools took dependently originated phenomena as conditioned, but dependent origination itself as unconditioned. Hence, as all dependently originated phenomena work under the principle of dependent origination, there is in a sense, no unconditioned apart from the conditioned.
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Huifeng
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by Huifeng »

m0rl0ck wrote:Thanks guys, these are both great sources. :bow:

Ven. Huifeng, do you have a link to the rest of that commentary? Is there a particular internet available commentary /translation you would recommend?
http://www.gampoabbey.org/translations2 ... ations.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The comment above is somewhere in vol IV, folio 31. On the 18 sunyata.
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by TAG »

Conditioned phenomena have entanglements and inverted structures of opposing inward and outward pressures that produce the formations that appear in the world: including physical and mental formations.

Unconditioned phenomena lack the entanglements and inverted structures of opposing inward and outward pressures that are capable of producing formations or appearances: including physical and mental formations.

Since no formations and no appearances happened in the "unconditioned world," there are no formations or appearances of suffering as well.

An extremely brief synopsis.
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by Malcolm »

TAG wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:59 pm Conditioned phenomena have entanglements and inverted structures of opposing inward and outward pressures that produce the formations that appear in the world: including physical and mental formations.

Unconditioned phenomena lack the entanglements and inverted structures of opposing inward and outward pressures that are capable of producing formations or appearances: including physical and mental formations.

Since no formations and no appearances happened in the "unconditioned world," there are no formations or appearances of suffering as well.

An extremely brief synopsis.
Unconditioned phenomena are just nonexistent. There are only four kinds of unconditioned phenomena in Buddhism: space, the two cessations, and emptiness, and they are all negations. Nirvana, for example, is simply the absence of afflictions which lead to rebirth.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:23 pm
Unconditioned phenomena are just nonexistent. There are only four kinds of unconditioned phenomena in Buddhism: space, the two cessations, and emptiness, and they are all negations. Nirvana, for example, is simply the absence of afflictions which lead to rebirth.
In saying that space, the two cessations, and emptiness are non-existent, what do you mean by not “existing”? Do you mean they are not regarded as ‘things’ (phenomena)?

One could say that emptiness “exists” as a characteristic of phenomena just as heat exists as a characteristic of fire.

This is why I think the term “occur” is often better.
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

One of the things to be careful of when talking about conditioned phenomena is to not “freeze in time” the object. In other words, remember when discussing what they lack or don’t lack or whatever, that conditioned phenomena are in constant motion, constant change. A table isn’t a table for even a second.
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Malcolm
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:23 pm
Unconditioned phenomena are just nonexistent. There are only four kinds of unconditioned phenomena in Buddhism: space, the two cessations, and emptiness, and they are all negations. Nirvana, for example, is simply the absence of afflictions which lead to rebirth.
In saying that space, the two cessations, and emptiness are non-existent, what do you mean by not “existing”? Do you mean they are not regarded as ‘things’ (phenomena)?

One could say that emptiness “exists” as a characteristic of phenomena just as heat exists as a characteristic of fire.

This is why I think the term “occur” is often better.
They are dharmas because they bear characteristics. Space is the absence of obstruction, cessation (both kinds) is the absence of a cause, emptiness is the absence of inherent existence.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:23 pm Unconditioned phenomena are just nonexistent. There are only four kinds of unconditioned phenomena in Buddhism: space, the two cessations, and emptiness, and they are all negations. Nirvana, for example, is simply the absence of afflictions which lead to rebirth.
So, you are saying space is just nonexistent?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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