Conditioned vs Unconditioned

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Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:20 am

Whats the difference? The heart sutra seems to equate the two. Is it just matter of viewpoint? Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby Huifeng » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:28 am

m0rl0ck wrote:Whats the difference? The heart sutra seems to equate the two. Is it just matter of viewpoint? Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?


There are a few positions. My own understanding of what makes the best sense, is that found in Nagarjuna's commentary to the Prajnaparamita:

《大智度論》卷31〈1 序品〉:「離有為則無無為。所以者何?有為法實相即是無為」(CBETA, T25, no. 1509, p. 289, a16-18)

Apart from the conditioned, there is no unconditioned. Why? Because the true nature of conditioned dharmas is the unconditioned.

Now, as we know, the nature of the conditioned is that whatever is subject to arising is subject to cessation, dependent origination. This is the unconditioned. Also known as dharma-dhatu, suchness, dharmata, etc.

Knowing this, one abandons "self-view". This is stream-entry for sravakas, and non-regression for bodhisattvas.

Continuing to see this nature of dharmas, the bodhisattva amasses the other conditions for full awakening. Once amassed, they end the defilements, and attain the utmost, right and perfect enlightenment.

--

This is distinct from the hinayana teachings on the conditioned and unconditioned, where both are distinct dharmas. ie. matter and mind, etc. are conditioned dharmas; nirvana (etc.) are unconditioned dharmas. The two types are distinct and basically unrelated to each other.
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:30 am

Greetings m0rl0ck,

m0rl0ck wrote:Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?


Have a look also at this.... (with the standard Wikipedia caveat)

Saṃskāra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra

Metta,
Retro. :)
Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes

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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:42 am

Thanks guys, these are both great sources. :bow:

Ven. Huifeng, do you have a link to the rest of that commentary? Is there a particular internet available commentary /translation you would recommend?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby Huifeng » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings m0rl0ck,

m0rl0ck wrote:Where does the conditioning of conditioned phenomena come from?


Have a look also at this.... (with the standard Wikipedia caveat)

Saṃskāra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra

Metta,
Retro. :)


This tends to suggest the position mentioned above, whereby various material and mental phenomena are "the conditioned", but then "nirvana" is some other "unconditioned" distinct and apart from them.

Whereas the Theravada and Sarvastivada took dependent origination to be conditioned, the other schools took dependently originated phenomena as conditioned, but dependent origination itself as unconditioned. Hence, as all dependently originated phenomena work under the principle of dependent origination, there is in a sense, no unconditioned apart from the conditioned.
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Re: Conditioned vs Unconditioned

Postby Huifeng » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:50 am

m0rl0ck wrote:Thanks guys, these are both great sources. :bow:

Ven. Huifeng, do you have a link to the rest of that commentary? Is there a particular internet available commentary /translation you would recommend?


http://www.gampoabbey.org/translations2 ... ations.htm

The comment above is somewhere in vol IV, folio 31. On the 18 sunyata.
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