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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment - Page 25 - Dhamma Wheel

Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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manas
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:31 am

Like a moth to a flame, I can't seem to resist getting interested in this discussion. Controversy is appealing to unenlightened minds, because it strengthens the sense of self to believe that 'we' are right, and 'they' are wrong. This too is something to be ultimately overcome. I am quite sure that a truly enlightened being (ariyan) would not bother too long in this arena, but would prefer a forum where they could just assist others in actually doing the practice. But as I am not as yet entered into an ariyan path, here I am, finding this discussion hard to resist.

So here is something that sticks in my mind, regarding Ingram's claim to having 'laid down the burden' of conceit. I'm not having a go at him, I will just contrast two (sets of) statements:

...Anyone who thinks these highly qualified statements are anything like a vision of emotional perfection or the elimination of all negative emotions is not paying attention! That is the last thing I wish to imply. I merely wish to say that there is some increased clarity about our basic human experience and it can help, but that is all. That said, you would be amazed how angry, lustful or ignorant enlightened beings can be, and they can still do all sorts of stupid things based on these emotions, just like everyone else. The ability to moderate responses to emotions can sometimes give the impression that those emotions have been attenuated, but that is not the same thing, and there is my nice transition to the Action Models...

90. The fever of passion exists not for him who has completed the journey, who is sorrowless and wholly set free, and has broken all ties.

93. He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to food, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.

94. Even the gods hold dear the wise one, whose senses are subdued like horses well trained by a charioteer, whose pride is destroyed and who is free from the cankers.

95. There is no more worldly existence for the wise one who, like the earth, resents nothing, who is firm as a high pillar and as pure as a deep pool free from mud.

96. Calm is his thought, calm his speech, and calm his deed, who, truly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise.

97. The man who is without blind faith, who knows the Uncreated, who has severed all links, destroyed all causes (for karma, good and evil), and thrown out all desires — he, truly, is the most excellent of men. [11]


Personally I find the Buddha's descriptions MUCH more appealing, and inspiring of effort. The Buddha seems to suggest that an arahant is a beautiful, humble and peaceful human being in whom no negativity whatsoever can be found. Ingram, by contrast, seems to be describing a very skilful state of being and relating with the world, but it does not seem to match up to the statemements either above (from the Dhammapada) or from elsewhere in the Pali Tipitaka, about what an arahant is like. So as I said, it sounds quite good (Ingrams non-clinging to mind-states as they arise, etc), but since he quite openly disagrees with the Buddha's own definitions of the enlightened state, why go under the banner of Buddhism anymore? Why call it arahantship?
Last edited by manas on Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:46 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

5heaps
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby 5heaps » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:07 am

A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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manas
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:39 am

I just realized how crucial the difference is: in the suttas the asavas are said to be 'pulled out', destroyed, gone, for the arahant (as in the Dhammapada quotes above). Ingram's clearly stated viewpoint is that they are not gone, but that an arahant simply does not attach to their influences any more (if I understand him correctly). Can anyone refute what I have just inferred, using the statements of both the Buddha and Ingram?

I have changed my mind about this discussion. I do not see it as negative anymore, but rather as very important to have, so long as it is engaged in respectfully (as has mostly been the case here), and with the welfare of all (even those who disagree with us) at heart. Because it is our duty as Buddhists to sort out what is the Teaching, from what it is not, so that the Buddha-Sasana may continue.

I do not feel threatened by Ingram (et al)'s claims anymore. Not feeling any threat, I feel no more ill-will. Rather, I just realized that he (Ingram) has maybe not correctly grasped the true meaning of what the Buddha was trying to help us to realize. I say this only out of concern for people who might thus be led astray as a result, and even Ingram himself. :meditate:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:35 am


SamKR
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby SamKR » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:36 am

Last edited by SamKR on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:38 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

nathan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nathan » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:44 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:01 am


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:51 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:01 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

nathan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nathan » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:02 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

nathan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nathan » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:17 am

hi Ben

Re; counterfeit dhamma. It might be best then to define genuine dhamma. I would suggest that nothing but seeing dhamma as an Arahant sees it would qualify as knowledge and understanding of genuine dhamma and that no one but one endowed with the four types of analytical knowledge could be said to consistently and reliably speak with authority in regards to it. Short of that, we have our texts and our interpretations, our teachers and our experience. Much of the sources of which and also the subsequent histories of have barely begun to be subjected to anything approaching exhaustive or conclusive historical and scholarly scrutiny. So, before we put anything or anyone on a high pedestal the support for which has yet to be extensively tested, we had best reflect at length. With all due respect to all those whom rightly deserve it, we can hardly caution others about being cautious and mindful of who and what they esteem if we are not likewise cautious and mindful ourselves.

Before this launches another round of circular argument and polarizations, please bear in mind that what I am continually suggesting is much more calm and contemplation and consideration. This and sober second thought about weighing any and all of the implications of reliance upon any and all sources of alleged absolute authority that one cannot yet likewise absolutely confirm.

:anjali:

ps, One small thing Ben, it's very kind of you to say what you did, but some of my posts, even in this thread, have been pretty crappy. We do the best we can within the given limits presented at the time, right?
All the best, take care.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:40 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Kenshou
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Kenshou » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:49 am

Judging by what's happened in the past nibs will be back, but he'll bring us a treatise on shedding our dogma and preconceptions instead of addressing the specific questions and criticisms. Hopefully I am wrong.

nathan
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nathan » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:50 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:55 am


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:21 am


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:38 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:42 am



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