zen and pureland views

[gingercatni]

I was reading a quote from a zen master about Amitabha's Pureland. He stated (more or less) that the pureland was not far in the west, but actually this world of ours and that Amitabha was a creation in our mind to achieve enlightenment. Now, in the sutra's we know Amitabha was once a man who became a Buddha, we know the pureland is described as being separated from earth. I believe in Amitabha, I believe he is real, I believe in the western pureland. Why do zen teachers seem to try and poke holes and seemingly denounce the Pureland school?

[plwk]

If these are of any help to you...

Firstly...

http://www.ymba.org/parable/parabfr3.htm
PARABLE 0120: THIS MIND IS THE BUDDHA
"Once a monk asked Big Plum what [the famous Zen Patriarch] Matsu taught him.
Big Plum said, 'This mind is the Buddha.'
The monk replied, 'Nowadays Matsu teaches That which isn't the mind isn't the Buddha.'
To this Big Plum replied, 'Let him have That which isn't the mind isn't the Buddha. I'll stick with This mind is the Buddha.'
When he heard this story, Matsu said, 'The plum is ripe.'
(Transmission of the Lamp, chapter 7)." Red Pine: 116

Secondly...

Question I:
The Diamond Sutra states:
All mundane (conditioned) dharmas are like dreams, illusions' shadows and bubbles.
Therefore, the Saha World being illusory, so is the Land of Ultimate Bliss. Why not enter directly into the True Original Mind instead of seeking rebirth in an illusory world?

Answer:
In truth, all the pure and impure lands in the ten directions are like dreams and illusions; however, only when we have attained the "Illusion-like Samadhi" can we see them as illusory and false. If we have not yet reached that stage, we still see them as real, we are still subject to their sway, we still know sorrow and happiness, we still feel uncomfortable during the summer heat and are even bothered by such small things as mosquito bites. Thus, how can we speak about things being illusory?
We should realize that the Pure Land method is a wonderful expedient of the Buddhas -- borrowing an illusory realm of happiness to help sentient beings escape from an illusory realm of great suffering, full of obstructing conditions and dangers. Then, in that happy, peaceful, illusory realm, cultivation progresses easily, and the ever-silent realm of the True Mind is swiftly attained.

To take an example, in this Saha World of ours, the scenes of stifling family life and noisy downtown business districts are illusory, and so are the scenes of temples and pagodas or mountain wildernesses. However, why is it that cultivators leave the noisy environment of the cities to seek the quiet, sparsely populated landscapes of temples and pagodas hidden in the mountains? Is it not because family life creates many binding ties and bustling urban intersections are not conducive to concentration, while temples, pagodas and mountain wildernesses facilitate cultivation? For this reason, the circumstances of ordinary people are different from those of the saints. For common mortals to put themselves in the place of the saints is far-fetched and unrealistic. We who are still common mortals should follow the path of ordinary people, and cultivate gradually. We should not look with the eyes of saints and comment too far above our level, to avoid the transgression of false speech.

There was once a Zen Master who thought that the Pure Land was illusory and that reciting the Buddha's name seeking rebirth there was useless.
Upon hearing this, Elder Master Ch'e Wu said immediately:

This is a mistake. Bodhisattvas of the Seventh Stage and below are all cultivating in a dream. Even those Bodhisattvas who have reached the level of Equal Enlightenment are still fast asleep within the great dream of delusion. Only the Buddhas can be honored with the designation Great Enlightened, i.e., those who have completely awakened. When our own body is in a dream, happiness and suffering are to be expected; we still experience happiness and still know suffering. How can we consider ourselves awakened from a dream and our environment dreamlike?

This being the case, how can remaining in the suffering dream of the Saha World compare with returning to the blissful dream of the Pure Land? Moreover, the Saha World dream goes from dream to dream, subject to the laws of karma, eternally revolving in the cycle of Birth and Death. The Pure Land dream on the other hand, is from dream to Enlightenment and gradual awakening to the ultimate stage of Buddhahood. Although the illusory dreams are the same, the conditions of the dreaming state in the two instances are really different. Thus, it is truly necessary to recite the Buddha's name seeking rebirth in the Pure Land!

These explanations have clearly demonstrated the need to seek rebirth in the Pure Land. However, the stanza from the Diamond Sutra quoted above is still an expedient explanation to help sentient beings abandon the common mortal's concept of attachment. Going one step further, as stated in the Great Prajna Paramita Sutra:
Buddha Sakyamuni explained to those of dull capacities that all dharmas are dreamlike, silent, and still, lest they develop view-attachment. To those of sharp capacities He spoke of the embellishments of the Buddhas, because they are like lotus blossoms, untouched by worldly dusts.
For this reason, Subhuti, who of all the Arhat disciples of Buddha Sakyamuni was foremost in the realization of the Truth of Emptiness (devoid of all names and marks), characteristically received a prediction that he would attain Buddhahood in the future under the title of "Name and Mark Buddha." Thus, the sublime truth of no name or mark is inseparable from name and mark -- all illusory dharmas are the Buddhas' dharmas, true and unchanging.
Going still deeper, to the ultimate and perfect stage, as the Sixth Patriarch has said:
Sentient beings are originally Buddhas, afflictions are Bodhi (Enlightenment), all delusions are the perfect and illuminating state, truly enlightened, of the womb of the Tathagatas.

Question III:
In the Platform Sutra, the Sixth Patriarch stated: Those living in the East [i.e., our world] who commit transgressions recite the Buddha's name seeking rebirth in the West [i.e., Pure Land]. Where do those transgressors living in the West seek rebirth when they recite?
Thus, we should only aim at eliminating transgressions. What need is there to recite the Buddha's name seeking rebirth in the Pure Land?

Answer:
The Sixth Patriarch and high-ranking Zen Masters were intent on teaching the doctrine of Mind. Thus, all of their words were based on these tenets, pointing directly to the Self-Nature, with the mind as the center. What the Patriarch really meant was that if the mind is pure, even though we may be in the Saha World, we are emancipated and free. If the mind is impure, even though we may be in the Pure Land, we are still subject to the sufferings of Birth and Death.

In truth, for the Pure Land cultivator who understands the Dharma, the Patriarch's words serve only to urge him on, encouraging him to recite the Buddha's Name to the level of purity of mind, devoid of all attachment to forms. The Patriarch certainly did not reject the act of reciting the Buddha's name seeking rebirth in the Pure Land as Buddha Sakyamuni, the Buddhas of the ten directions, the great Bodhisattvas and the Patriarchs all recommended seeking rebirth there. In fact, the two foremost Indian Zen Patriarchs, Asvaghosha and Nagarjuna, both recommended the Pure Land method. Nagarjuna himself, according to the Lankavatara Sutra, was enlightened to the preliminary Bodhisattva ground of "extreme Joy," and was reborn in the Pure Land.

If the Sixth Patriarch had truly intended to reject Buddha Recitation, he would have been criticizing and rejecting Buddha Sakyamuni, the Buddhas of the ten directions, the Bodhisattvas and the Patriarchs, including the very precursors who established his own Zen School, the Patriarchs Asvaghosha and Nagarjuna. How could that be? Therefore, if we were to misunderstand the Sixth Patriarch's words and use those very words to deprecate Buddha Recitation, we would be slandering and sowing the seeds of injustice toward him.

Moreover, every method has two aspects noumenon (principle) and phenomena. The quotation from the Sixth Patriarch is at the level of principle. We must also consider the phenomenal aspect of the path to liberation.

Let us restate the question. "Those who commit transgressions in the secular world seek refuge in temples and pagodas, where they cut their hair, become vegetarians, and keep the precepts, looking for a place of purity and tranquility in order to cultivate. Where do those living in temples and pagodas who transgress go to cultivate?" If we base ourselves only at the level of noumenon and follow the above reasoning, then can such actions as entering the monastic life, being vegetarian, and keeping the precepts, including Buddha, Sutra and Mantra Recitation as well as meditation, all be mistakes?

The Pure Land method is similar. In truth, people in the East do not recite the Buddha's name seeking rebirth in the West merely because they have committed transgressions; rather, they do so precisely to take advantage of the excellent conditions of that Land to cultivate and swiftly attain the level of No-Birth and liberation. This is also the goal pursued by those who have committed evil deeds but who now repent and recite the Buddha's name.

Moreover, the inhabitants of the Western Pure Land cannot commit transgressions because once reborn there, they are surrounded by Buddha Amitabha, Bodhisattvas and "morally superior beings." Around them are "birds singing the Dharma and music expounding the sutras," while they are free from such daily worries as food, clothing, disease, calamities, hatred and resentment. Thus, they can only progress along the path of cultivation. Where are the causes and conditions for creating bad karma?

In conclusion, we should understand the Sixth Patriarch's words as an explanation and exhortation based exclusively on pure noumenon or essence. We should not misunderstand them and use them to reject phenomena and marks. This being the case, Pure Land cultivators should redouble their efforts and practice to the point of emptiness of mind. Only then will they be in accord with the intent of the Patriarch.

Thirdly...

http://www.ymba.org/BWF/bwf32.htm#sever
Many similar doubts remain concerning the Pure Land method. This is because most cultivators are still attached to "duality," and have not reconciled essence and marks,existence and non-existence, noumenon and phenomena. That is why they embrace essence to reject marks, noumenon to reject phenomena, Emptiness to reject Existence, and vice versa -- thus creating disputes, doubts and perplexity.

Little do they suspect that there is mutual identity between noumenon and phenomena -- phenomena are noumenon, noumenon is phenomena. If we divide them and consider them separately, phenomena are not true phenomena, noumenon is not true noumenon. This is true also of essence and marks, existence and non-existence and other dualistic dharmas.

For this reason, the Vimalakirti Sutra speaks of the non-dual method to destroy this attachment. Non-dual means reconciling all things, penetrating into their very nature; it does not mean "one." This is the true realm of "Mind-Only." Any other doctrine based on the Dharma Doors of Existence or Emptiness is merely an expedient for teaching purposes.

Enlightened Masters of the past, with their high level of practice and achievement, could teach the Dharma according to the times and conditions. Moreover, the practitioners of the time included individuals of the highest capacities, so that the teaching of Emptiness was often fruitful. Today, the majority are of limited and moderate capacity. Therefore, in our teaching, we should harmonize theory and practice, nature and marks, so as not to engender doubts, and to keep the Bodhi Mind of the cultivators from retrogressing. Since the majority of practitioners cannot enter directly into the sphere of True Emptiness in one step, rejection of external forms would bring on the calamity of "prematurely destroying the boat before stepping onto the shore." How, then, could they escape drowning?

One more point to bear in mind: if we speak about the Truth of Emptiness without having attained that stage or at least reached a certain level of achievement in our practice, we certainly cannot convert others, but will only end up in useless arguments and disputes.

Of the two types of attachments, to Existence and to Emptiness, the latter is the more dangerous. Both the Lankavatara and the Esoteric Adornment Sutras warned:
It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as great as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small mustard seed.

Attachment to Existence leads to mindfulness of cause and effect, wariness of transgressions and fear of breaking the precepts, as well as to such practices as Buddha and Sutra Recitation and performance of good deeds. Although these actions are bound to forms and not liberated and empty, they are all conducive to merit, virtue and good roots. On the other hand, if we are attached to Emptiness without having attained True Emptiness, but refuse to follow forms and cultivate merit and virtue, we will certainly sink into the cycle of Birth and Death.

[Jikan]

It seems to me they have a different understanding of Amida's role, function ,and reality from your school. It doesn't mean they want to poke holes in that doctrine, merely that they hold a different position. Ask a Tendai teacher about Amida, and you'll get yet another view; ask five Tibetan masters and you'll get six or seven views on Amitabha. Which one is the best one? The one you can practice.

I don't have my copy of the sutras with me today, so I can't spell it out, but there are ways in which Amida's pure land can be understood as coterminus with the here and now. The view you describe as a Zen view is not untenable.

Namu Amida Butsu!

[Distorted]

It seems to me they have a different understanding of Amida's role, function ,and reality from your school. It doesn't mean they want to poke holes in that doctrine, merely that they hold a different position. Ask a Tendai teacher about Amida, and you'll get yet another view; ask five Tibetan masters and you'll get six or seven views on Amitabha. Which one is the best one? The one you can practice.

I don't have my copy of the sutras with me today, so I can't spell it out, but there are ways in which Amida's pure land can be understood as coterminus with the here and now. The view you describe as a Zen view is not untenable.

Namu Amida Butsu!

I have received many interpretations on Namu Amida Butsu in Jodo Shinshu and decided to choose one that makes most logic to me. I mostly focus on impermanence/understanding without giving much thoughts on deities in exception of giving thanks for their teachings through the Dharma. I am probably not a very good Buddhist because of this? I seem to do this same thing in each school of Buddhism I had experienced or learned about. I take in the knowledge given to me outside the Dharma and retain as much as possible. Though I always bring back to the Dharma and not concern myself about everything else unless I need to understand connections. No disrespect to anyone who does not find this agreeable.

Is this so bad?

[Jikan]

Practice what you can to the best of your ability. How can you go wrong? What alternative do you have?

[sinweiy]

to me, both are true. the one that says that it's far away in the west is according to sentient beings that has conceptual attachment of space and time. while the one that says that it's everywhere, here and now, (or that Amitabha is one's own nature) is the one that has gotten rid of conceptual attachment of space; time and selfhood. this is a high achievement, so i am not sure if that zen teacher had already reached that stage of enlightenment, where he could even walk through a solid wall for example. not that i am encouraging spiritual power, but this is the original nature. if not it's just a saying of the truth, but it does not mean one has achieved that state of mind which is not easy. hence we follow the former practice which is easier to believe in a real Amitabha and a real pureland in the west. after one has reached the western pureland, one will achieved the latter state of mind of spacelessness and timelessness and selflessness.

that say, when the mind is pure, the land(everywhere) is pure. the more the mind is pure, the more closer you are with pureland.

i heard of a late Master Shen Kai who is able to go to pureland by meditation. and this is his account.

Disciple: Master, how do we witness Sukhavathi?
Master Shen Kai: That's easy. But Sukhavathi is very far away. How far? It's passing through hundreds of thousands of millions of Buddhalands. In between this hundreds of thousands of millions of Buddhalands are not Buddhalands but impure land 秽土. Buddhalands are pure where Buddhas dwell. Sukhavathi is hence very very far away. In the sutras, Buddha used to explain that it's very very near. So near that nobody believe it's true. There's no choice as sentient beings are too attached to ideas, hence He said that it's very very far away and not easy to go or reach. So He expound the Amitabha Sutra, where Buddha spoke without people asking. If a person is without attachment, then Dharmakaya is very near as it encompass everything. Since it's entire existence, it's so near to reach like space everywhere exist Dharmakaya. Without Dharmakaya, Earth cannot be in the air. Cars cannot works. Every thing is benefited by Dharmakaya. When people do business, they need a initial funding, now Buddha say you don't need that initial funding, you believe in Amitabha and recite His name. Then seeing people wear a gold necklace, but it's just a piece of metal chain like the one you see in jail to chain prisioners. Then Buddha told sentient beings not to be obsess with gold, you just need to recite Amitabha and don't need any initial funding and you can reborn in a place where gold is use for building constructions. So does Sukhavathi really exist? Yes. Don't think Master is lying. You can go now and witness yourself and come back to tell people. Master tell you I been there before, you all might disbelieve. So I will describe it to you.
Sentient beings on Earth are very small, Bodhisattvas of Sukhavathi are really Big and tall. A person standing next to Amitabha only reach the height of Amitabha's toe! but Amitabha is able to change the size, so that they both can talk. When I reached Sukhavathi, only wish to pay homage to Amitabha, adore Amitabha.
Amitabha Buddha reply: What do you seek here in Sukhavathi?
Shen Kai: Honored One, i came to seek Dharma.
Amitabha Buddha ask: What kind of Dharma?
Shen Kai: i'm not sure. Seeing Amitabha's forehead is adorned with a curled hair白毫. i wish to seek that Dharma. Amitabha said okay.
(Back to reality.) That's how I cultivated my curled hair 白毫, but this Dharma method cannot be expound to anybody. It's is because you people have doubt in Sukhavathi. Thinking it doesn't exist. Hence I tell you my experience. Due to the busy schedule, the white hair is curled. When grew longer to 3 inch, will extend when i'm washing the face. That's the proof.

[Indrajala]

Why do zen teachers seem to try and poke holes and seemingly denounce the Pureland school?

Because the whole model is entirely faith-based and furthermore predicated on post-mortem experience which cannot be experientially verified.

[Nighthawk]

I was reading a quote from a zen master about Amitabha's Pureland. He stated (more or less) that the pureland was not far in the west, but actually this world of ours and that Amitabha was a creation in our mind to achieve enlightenment. Now, in the sutra's we know Amitabha was once a man who became a Buddha, we know the pureland is described as being separated from earth. I believe in Amitabha, I believe he is real, I believe in the western pureland. Why do zen teachers seem to try and poke holes and seemingly denounce the Pureland school?

A possibility could be an inferiority complex since Pure Land is much more dominant than Zen in Japan. I don't think real zen masters would try to poke holes since they are above all that.

[Shutoku]

In the contemplation Sutra Shakyamuni says that the Pure land is not far from here.
So there seems a contradiction from the Amida Sutra.

A guest minister (I do not remember who ) at my local Jodo Shinshu Temple once explained it this way.
"From the perspective of foolish beings, the Pure Land is very far away, from the perspective of Amida, it is right here."

[LastLegend]

Listen pureland is a tool to become a fully enlightened Buddha. Zen is also a tool to become fully enlightened Buddha, so to speak the direct path. Is Pureland real? Yes, only for 3 great kaplas (don't know the word), then when one becomes fully enlightened, it will change because the mind has transformed...what the zen master spoke of is also true BUT to take the Zen path, you must be on the verge of enlightenment to become fully a enlightened Buddha.

Those who don't understand that is a fool.

[Nosta]

Sinwei, according to your post the Master Shen Kai has travelled (so to say) to Sukhavati and able to return to told the story?

[Anders]

In the contemplation Sutra Shakyamuni says that the Pure land is not far from here.
So there seems a contradiction from the Amida Sutra.

A guest minister (I do not remember who ) at my local Jodo Shinshu Temple once explained it this way.
"From the perspective of foolish beings, the Pure Land is very far away, from the perspective of Amida, it is right here."

There can be many layers of meaning to a concept. For example, on one level we may go for refuge in the Buddha Shakyamuni, his teaching and his sangha, and on another level we go for refuge in the real Buddha that sits within, in innate wisdom and all awakened manifestations. Both have value and neither invalidate the other.

The Pure land can be far away and it can be right here, depending on how you see it (the vimalakirti sutra makes a point of stating how it is only due to our own perception we do not perceive shakyamuni's buddhafield as being absolutely pure) and even Amida can be in the western paradise or the Buddha within.

But I think the pureland sutras were nevertheless spoken for a reason and great teachers like Nagarjuna didn't teach on them for no good reason either.

[Lotus415]

"Ordinary people generally think that if the Pure Land is Mind-Only, then it does
not exist. This is the understanding of demons and externalists. Such a deluded
view, which appears correct but is in reality wrong, affects more than half of all
people and causes practitioners to forfeit true benefits." - Patriarch Yin Kuang

From the book Pure-Land Zen, Zen Pure-Land

The book can be read here:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/yin_kuang.pdf

[Nighthawk]

In the contemplation Sutra Shakyamuni says that the Pure land is not far from here.
So there seems a contradiction from the Amida Sutra.

A guest minister (I do not remember who ) at my local Jodo Shinshu Temple once explained it this way.
"From the perspective of foolish beings, the Pure Land is very far away, from the perspective of Amida, it is right here."

Good luck trying to find the Pure Land right here and now and achieving that nondual state of mind permanently. Something that 99% of Zen/Chan practitioners fail to accomplish.

You should of asked this guest minister if he has found the Pure Land right here and now. I'd love to know his answer.

[Shutoku]

In the contemplation Sutra Shakyamuni says that the Pure land is not far from here.
So there seems a contradiction from the Amida Sutra.

A guest minister (I do not remember who ) at my local Jodo Shinshu Temple once explained it this way.
"From the perspective of foolish beings, the Pure Land is very far away, from the perspective of Amida, it is right here."

Good luck trying to find the Pure Land right here and now and achieving that nondual state of mind permanently. Something that 99% of Zen/Chan practitioners fail to accomplish.

You should of asked this guest minister if he has found the Pure Land right here and now. I'd love to know his answer.

I suspect he would answer that since he is not Amida, but is a foolish being, he has not found the Pure Land here.

He was a Jodo Shinshu Minister. He was not advocating self-power attainment of a non-dual state, rather he is advocating complete reliance upon Amida.

[sinweiy]

Sinwei, according to your post the Master Shen Kai has travelled (so to say) to Sukhavati and able to return to told the story?

i believe so, yes. to me, He's a returning bodhisattva. i have heard some of his recorded talks and it's very insightful.

of one of the account, i heard it was one of the departee whom he helped went to Sukhavati and came back to discribe Sukhavati, saying that she saw many huge tall bodhisattvas flying around, but i can't recall the detail. Master Shen Kai taught her a special technique/dharma. i heard from his disciples that Master Shen Kai bodhisattva may return.

[Nighthawk]

In the contemplation Sutra Shakyamuni says that the Pure land is not far from here.
So there seems a contradiction from the Amida Sutra.

A guest minister (I do not remember who ) at my local Jodo Shinshu Temple once explained it this way.
"From the perspective of foolish beings, the Pure Land is very far away, from the perspective of Amida, it is right here."

Good luck trying to find the Pure Land right here and now and achieving that nondual state of mind permanently. Something that 99% of Zen/Chan practitioners fail to accomplish.

You should of asked this guest minister if he has found the Pure Land right here and now. I'd love to know his answer.

I suspect he would answer that since he is not Amida, but is a foolish being, he has not found the Pure Land here.

He was a Jodo Shinshu Minister. He was not advocating self-power attainment of a non-dual state, rather he is advocating complete reliance upon Amida.

Apologies if I sounded too aggressive. Thanks for your reply.

[Nosta]

Sinwei, thank you once again.

By chance, do you know where can i read more aboute such travels to Sukhavati?

I've been searching on google but with no success.

[sinweiy]

Sinwei, thank you once again.

By chance, do you know where can i read more aboute such travels to Sukhavati?

I've been searching on google but with no success.

nope, i only heard this two special cases and it was in chinese. they have special affinity. though Master Shen Kai was not really from PL school, but founded Rencheng(Humanity Vehicle or Buddha Only school, 唯佛宗), more or less to create PL on Earth.

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/
http://rencheng.com/worldbuddhism.php

[Mr. G]

Sinwei, thank you once again.

By chance, do you know where can i read more aboute such travels to Sukhavati?

I've been searching on google but with no success.

nope, i only heard this two special cases and it was in chinese. they have special affinity. though Master Shen Kai was not really from PL school, but founded Rencheng(Humanity Vehicle or Buddha Only school, 唯佛宗), more or less to create PL on Earth.

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/
http://rencheng.com/worldbuddhism.php

Hi sinweiy,

Thanks for bringing up Master Shen Kai. I had never heard of him before.