Scottish Independence

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:06 pm

Where does the question stand now? That is, are we looking at the beginning of the beginning of the process of political separation, or is this more the beginning of the end of the process?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby AdmiralJim » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:43 pm

I am sorry kirtu but I did misinterpret what you said as Scottish superiority as racial - anyway I don't see the need for twisted knickers. Jikan the process is just beginning but basically in the Scottish parliament the Scottish national party has won a huge majority in a system that was designed to make sure they never got one. Westminster has what is known as 'reserved powers' which basically limit the ability of the Scottish parliament to call a referendum and do anything meaningful and scarily it is possible for Westminster to dissolve the Scottish parliament at anytime. so we again have to wait for the approval of Westminster for the referendum - something they morally cannot block even though they could legally block it.
It looks like there will be a referendum in 2014 about independence. The national party want a two question referendum basically one on independence and for Scottish people who do not want full independence they are thinking of asking for maximum devolution which would make Scotland a federal state in the UK. I personally feel we should leave the UK all together.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby conebeckham » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:05 pm

AdmiralJim wrote: I find it ironic that a guy who lives in the States to not acknowledge that especially considering Scotland was a sovereign state with its own language, culture and legal system, something that the USA never was, just being a colony.


Tell that to the Iroquois Nation, the Cherokee, the Hurons, the Navajo.....etc., etc.

(I know it's somewhat tangential, but I couldn't help pointing out. The lens of history is always a distorted lens, depending on the depth and magnification one wishes to apply. And, in some cases, the tint of the glass--see Tibet/China for a good example).

I'm happy to read this thread, and follow along--the issue interests me.

And FWIW, I don't read Kirtu's comments here as any sort of "judgement of Scotts," but more as a concern for the possibility of violence and strife as a result. I dunno.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby AdmiralJim » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:27 pm

Tell that to the Iroquois Nation, the Cherokee, the Hurons, the Navajo.....etc., etc.
when i mean the USA I mean the colony of Europeans that were established there, I sympathise a lot with native Americans. The killing that resulted from the Scottish wars of independence was horrific indeed in Aberdeen where I live the local castle was burnt to the ground and residents killed because we hid the Scottish king from rampaging armies. All the local parks in our are town are old royal hunting forest which was given to our citizens as a thank you for our help. I also don't like the term 'wars of independence' as it is a pretty loaded term which almost implies we were never independent in the first place. This history is systematically left out of our school curriculum.
I understand concerns about it being a banner for more unsavory elements in mainland Europe but at the end of the day - a fascist nutter will always find some way of creating a scapegoat - you only need to look at the impact of American Government foreign policy against terrorism - which has resulted in middle east dictators claiming they are also 'fighting terrorists'.
It is also kind of difficult to remain impartial especially as my mother is related to the original highland clans who were systematically massacred and persecuted. It appears the history of Scotland and England is far more bloody than people initially realise especially those who live abroad and just see the 'UK'.
Last edited by AdmiralJim on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:34 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:Jikan the process is just beginning but basically in the Scottish parliament the Scottish national party has won a huge majority in a system that was designed to make sure they never got one. Westminster has what is known as 'reserved powers' which basically limit the ability of the Scottish parliament to call a referendum and do anything meaningful and scarily it is possible for Westminster to dissolve the Scottish parliament at anytime. so we again have to wait for the approval of Westminster for the referendum - something they morally cannot block even though they could legally block it.
It looks like there will be a referendum in 2014 about independence. The national party want a two question referendum basically one on independence and for Scottish people who do not want full independence they are thinking of asking for maximum devolution which would make Scotland a federal state in the UK. I personally feel we should leave the UK all together.


Thanks for the clarification on this. I knew that Scotland had some form of limited autonomy within the UK, but the practical meaning of that autonomy and more significantly its limits has been a mystery to me. (All I know about these issues was gathered from my mom's experience in Aberdeen & Dundee in the very early 60s, and from reading Tom Nairn's work from the 70s... very dated indeed. She adored Scotland, by the way.)

I expect that the chances for an affirmative vote on independence may depend somewhat on how specific advocates for independence can be on how an independent Scotland will look and work. This way, proponents can anticipate and shut down counterarguments. Natural resources, health care, currency, defense, all the rest. It's the best antidote to fearmongering, which relies on appeals to the unknown.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jikan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:37 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:
Tell that to the Iroquois Nation, the Cherokee, the Hurons, the Navajo.....etc., etc.
when i mean the USA I mean the colony of Europeans that were established there, I sympathise a lot with native Americans. The killing that resulted from the Scottish wars of independence was horrific indeed in Aberdeen where I live the local castle was burnt to the ground and residents killed because we hid the Scottish king from rampaging armies. All the local parks in our are town are old royal hunting forest which was given to our citizens as a thank you for our help. I also don't like the term 'wars of independence' as it is a pretty loaded term which almost implies we were never independent in the first place. This history is systematically left out of our school curriculum.
I understand concerns about it being a banner for more unsavory elements in mainland Europe but at the end of the day - a fascist nutter will always find some way of creating a scapegoat - you only need to look at the impact of American Government foreign policy against terrorism - which has resulted in middle east dictators claiming they are also 'fighting terrorists'.
It is also kind of difficult to remain impartial especially as my mother is related to the original highland clans who were systematically massacred and persecuted. It appears the history of Scotland and England is far more bloody than people initially realise especially those who live abroad and just see the 'UK'.


Indeed. If you look at the history, you see that the English learned everything they knew about imperialism first in Scotland, then in Ireland, then in the Atlantic (the foundation of the North American experience), then...***

see: The Thousand Headed Hydra by Linebaugh & Rediker

***I mean they learned from their experiences in taking over their neighbors before moving on to take over the world
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