2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Jinzang
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Jinzang »

I was around as the whole unfortunate mess unfolded and what was said immediately after his death was that the Karmapa always leaves a prediction letter saying where he will be reborn and that the four "heart sons" would jointly act as regents until the next Karmapa was found and would use the prediction letter to locate him. How things unfolded, everyone here knows.
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Karinos
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Karinos »

a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.
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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Grigoris »

The statue of the 16th Karmapa behind him freaked me out there for a second! :o
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Dhondrub
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Dhondrub »

Karinos wrote:a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.

karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi
Caz
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Caz »

You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Karinos
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Karinos »

Dhondrub wrote:
karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi
indeed :)
Dhondrub
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Dhondrub »

Karinos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi
indeed :)
:spy:
AlexanderS
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by AlexanderS »

Caz wrote:You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?
I don't think, I have. Where can I see them?

-Alex
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Karinos
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Karinos »

http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like this - but it's not new one -
http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6& ... 629a44bbc1
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Kilaya.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Kilaya. »

Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
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kirtu
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by kirtu »

Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

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heart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by heart »

[quote="kirtu"]Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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kirtu
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by kirtu »

heart wrote:
kirtu wrote:Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus
:rolling: :tongue:

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, :quoteunquote: superfast :quoteunquote: ....

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by kirtu »

heart wrote:
kirtu wrote:Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt
Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus
Oh I accidentally misquoted the Sharmapa - he thinks few people, Western or Asian, are really ready for Vajrayana and that the sutric Bodhisattvayana with essentially sutric meditation (from the Samadhiraja Sutra, so it sounds like the so-called Kagyu sutric Mahamudra) is best for most people these days.

Anyway, keeping an open mind ....

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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heart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by heart »

kirtu wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus
:rolling: :tongue:

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, :quoteunquote: superfast :quoteunquote: ....

Kirt
I heard the Shamarpa was a very gifted Dzogchen practitioner when he was young and have a great capacity for giving direct introduction so the Mahayana he is suggesting might not be so slow. To me it sounds like Sutra Mahamudra combined with compassion and devotion, it could actually be quite fast.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
AlexanderS
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by AlexanderS »

Kilaya. wrote:Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.
Very nice video, thank you very much.
sherabpa
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by sherabpa »

heart wrote:
pemachophel wrote:Sherabpa,

Why exactly do you say that there can't be two Karmapas? The famous Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo Rinpoche had at least five tulkus. There are numerous other lines of tulkus where there are more than one. Another example are the three lines of Pema Lingpa tulkus: Body, Speech, and Mind.
I'd just like to know your reasoning for saying that, when it comes of the Karmapa, there can be only one valid tulku. Thanks.
Also, Tulku Urgyen said there could be two Karmapa's, already from the beginning.

/magnus
When I say there is only one Karmapa, this as a matter of fact, rather than a statement of what is possible. I don't mean to deny there could be two Karmapas. This is possible - when it comes to Karmapa, many amazing things are possible. I do not say 'there can be only one'. What I mean is, in the particular case of Orgyen Thinley Dorje and Thinley Thaye Dorje, one of them is a fake. It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.

And the reason I think one of them is fake is that nobody - neither Orgyen Thinley nor Thinley Thaye, nor their gurus, not any high Kagyu gurus of the past, say that both of them are Karmapa. If these high lamas changed their views and said there were two Karmapas, that would change things. But to say there are two Karmapas is to contradict what all the high lamas say. On what grounds can someone ordinary like me make such an extraordinary claim?

We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Malcolm »

sherabpa wrote:
It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.

Politics.
honestdboy
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by honestdboy »

Tulku Urgyen wanted both Karmapas to be respected. Beru Khyentse Rinpoche strongly supports both Karmapas. The great Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche does, too. I respect their efforts at bringing the Kagyu family back together. I imagine some of the different branches of the Kagyu lineage have their origins in similar disagreements. I have studied with lamas on both sides of this issue and will continue to do so. I wish the two Karmapas could meet and talk things out in private.
:anjali:
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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Post by Grigoris »

sherabpa wrote:We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.
Your reasoning is completely flawed. If both claimants have authentic Kagyu Lamas that say they are Karmapa then neither Karmapa is fake and the "true" Karmapa for each individual is based on which "high lama" they happen to agree with. Anyway you are also wrong on another count: there are "high lama" that believe both of the candidates are authentic, Beru Khyentse (long life to him!) is one of the supporters of this position.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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