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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment - Page 20 - Dhamma Wheel

Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dharmakara
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Dharmakara » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Please forgive my intrusion into this discussion, but a couple of things need to be asked:

First, when and where did it become appropriate to charge a fee (or even suggest an amount of dana) for that which was freely given for the welfare and liberation of others?

And second, what is this "real Dhamma" that continues to be invoked and tossed around? Don't quote me verbatim, but I'm pretty sure following statement is still contained in the Vinaya Pitaka:

Of whatever teachings, you can assure yourself that they conduce to dispassion and not to uncontrolled passions, to freedom and not bondage, to humanistic and not materialistic values, to generousity and not to covetness, to content and not discontent, to energy and not sluggishness, to delight in what is good and not what is evil, that of such teachings one might with certainty confirm that this is the Path, that this is the Dhamma, that this is the Buddha's message.

The World Honored One, perfect in illumination and wisdom, summed up the whole of his teaching in one gatha: to cease from all evil actions, to generate all that is good, and to cleanse one’s mind, that this was (and still is) the constant advice of all Buddhas past, present and future.

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Ben
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:29 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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beeblebrox
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:48 pm


upekkha
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby upekkha » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:03 pm


Jack
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Jack » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:26 pm

>Both Ingram and Folk's approaches are about cultivating experiences which may be useful, but the practice as I have tried to point out more than once is more than that, though I cannot deny the allure and enchantment of experience. Experience can be, however, misleading.<
===
My reading of Ingram is that he is not about cultivating experiences. He is about cultivating a practice. And, then he explains the different experiences one might have. In his book introduction he says that he was lost when young when he had all these weird experiences that he couldn't understand and wishes he had someone like himself to explain what was happening.

I find his saying that he is an arahat not important. I do find his explanation of meditation techniques and the different experiences one might have very useful and in line with the suttas.

jack

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Dharmakara
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Dharmakara » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:46 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:14 pm


upekkha
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby upekkha » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:48 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:36 pm


alan
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby alan » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:43 am

upekkha---Best to quit while you're ahead. Or at least not too far down.

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legolas
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby legolas » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:20 am




An Essay about Arahats (Arhats, Arahants, etc.)
by Daniel M. Ingram, Arahat

....................
Here are a number of bogus myths and falsehoods about arahats, each of which violates one of more of the First Principles in addition to simply being untrue:

1. Arahats cannot lie.
2. Arahats cannot have erections or have sex.
3. Arahats would never do drugs or drink.
4. Arahats cannot kill anything ever.
5. Arahats cannot state they are arahats.
6. Arahats must ordain within 7 days of becomming an arahat in the Buddhist order of monks or they will die.
7. Arahats cannot think the thought "I am an arahat."
8. Arahats cannot feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other "bad" emotion.
9. Arahats cannot like music or dance.
10. Arahats love forests.
11. Arahats cannot have jobs or normal relationships.
12. Arahats do not really exist today.
13. Arahats must work hard to maintain their understanding, and it is this that makes them unable to do so many things.
14. Arahats have not fully realized the Truth of Things, but instead only practioners of certain strains of Tibetan Buddhism can really see through to reality.

Those who go back to the books to find quotes to try to prove me wrong should:
..........
1. Consider that the texts contain numerous contraditions even within themselves.
2. Were written down over hundreds of years from stories recited over hundreds of years by people with diverse backgrounds and levels of understanding, and so contain both truth and falsehood.
3. Get your head out of the books and go get enlightened to a high degree, as not only will that end the debate, it is the thing that all this is about in the first place.........................


I get so many emails from people who say things like, "I'm not really feeling much lust anymore, so I must be enlightened." Wow. I hardly know where to begin except to feel sorry for them.


I really feel like crying that people can listen/read the above ramblings and actually take it seriously. The ending of lust, hate and delusion makes up 90% of the suttas. This guy has to be either

a) A con artist

b) Deluded

c) Both

Without the ORIGINAL teachings Mr Ingram has nothing to base his assertions, having made them he then totally dismisses those very same teachings, to allow Arahants to engage in sex, drugs and rock n roll. Come on people!

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Ben
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:13 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Nyana
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Nyana » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:20 am


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Ben
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:28 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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legolas
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby legolas » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:34 am


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Dharmakara
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby Dharmakara » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:45 am

Okay, maybe it's time for some light humor in this thread... is it just me or does Ngakpa Chogyam look like a Nutcracker King?

Image

gsteinb
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby gsteinb » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:08 pm


nobodyhome
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby nobodyhome » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:10 pm

Double post
Last edited by nobodyhome on Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nobodyhome
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby nobodyhome » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:11 pm

enough
Last edited by nobodyhome on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:43 pm



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