2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:44 pm

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby pemachophel » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:28 pm

Sherabpa,

Why exactly do you say that there can't be two Karmapas? The famous Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo Rinpoche had at least five tulkus. There are numerous other lines of tulkus where there are more than one. Another example are the three lines of Pema Lingpa tulkus: Body, Speech, and Mind.
I'd just like to know your reasoning for saying that, when it comes of the Karmapa, there can be only one valid tulku. Thanks.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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heart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby heart » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:00 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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florin
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby florin » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:08 pm

If one of them wasn't a Karmapa to begin with he has become one due to training.
Now there are 2 true Karmapas.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Norwegian » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:35 pm

That is only an assumption though, and we'd have to establish first what it really means to be the Karmapa, and then somehow know with certainty which one of them is that (if we take the position that one is and one isn't). We can of course just go with official recognition, let's say the one that His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Tai Situpa supports, and say he is - or we can say the other one is. But if we ignore recognitions, then what decides? And how do we know for sure?

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:45 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Norwegian
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Norwegian » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:56 pm

The problem is that we take these things on faith, and we don't really know, unless we're very advanced bodhisattvas on the stages, and I'm not sure many of us are that. I for one am not. And as such, it's very hard for me to say "Yes this and that tulku is real, and this and that tulku is not." I just cannot say that.

Therefore, for me the things that matter is not name or recognition, but it is view and action, the knowledge and wisdom of a teacher, their qualifications. These things decide for me whether a teacher is good or not, and not a name.

So with regards to the 2x Karmapa issue, all I can say is does it matter (which is the true Karmapa, and whether there's one of them or two)? Maybe, if you want to look at traditional positions, history and all of these things. But what does the two teach? How are they as teachers? And so on. Because if both are very good Dharma teachers, then that's a very good thing. Look at that instead, and then perhaps the whole Karmapa issue isn't so important after all. At least I'd hope so, because who sits on what throne and who holds what hat has very little to do with the essence of Dharma.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:15 pm

Hi Greg,

Without getting into a big thing about it, that's not strictly true, sure previous Karmapas have been identified and enthroned by Shamarpas, but not all...Previous Situpas and Gyaltsabs have held this role both solely and jointly, so no matter what some would have us think, this has never been solely the Sharmarpas responsibility.

For example, the 16th Karmapa was identified and enthroned by Pema Wangchuk, the 11th Tai Situpa. Dudul Dorje, the 13th Karmapa, was recognized and Enthroned by Gyaltsab Rinpoche. Also other Lamas from other Kagyu sects have played a role in identifying Karmapas, such as Gyalwa Drukchen (in the case of Thekchok Dorje, the 14th Karmapa)

Best wishes.
s.

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:32 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Stewart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:25 am

Yeah...that's what the current Shamarpa says...repeatedly, but historically Tai Situpa played as much central role. Just read the various Karmapa's biographies, and not just the ones on Wikipedia :)

I like you Greg, so let's agree to let this one rest.

Ps. I have received many teachings from the present Tai Situpa, so naturally I consider him one of my Gurus, he is also the Guru of my main teacher, Mingyur Rinpoche. He is an amazing, gentle and generous person. I have never once heard him say anything remotely negative about the whole Karmapa situation or anyone involved, I have however heard what I can only describe as disgusting accusations against Tai Situpa and his character.
s.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Jinzang » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:52 am

I always found it a bit ironic that in a religion based on the idea of the non-existence of ego that people would argue about who "really" was the Karmapa. And I should add that matters most in any teacher is the qualities and not the title.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!"

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Josef » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:30 am


Stewart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:54 am

And I too agree....the qualities of Tai Situpa are what impressed me, the directness and clarity of his instructions, from the foundations to Mahamudra pith, he is patient, kind and personal, not his title or position....also the way he has reacted to his critics, shows for me, how genuine and humble he truly is.

To be honest, I genuinely don't care who thinks who is the Karmapa, I have met and received teachings and empowerments from the Karmapa, to me, it was profound.

Best wishes to everyone. :)
s.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby catmoon » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:28 am

What's better than a Karmapa? Two Karmapas!

I think we are extremely fortunate to have a free choice between two such highly trained teachers, and I really don't think anyone will go far wrong with either one. One day they may sit down and agree upon a single successor, and the whole thing will be over.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:21 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

AlexanderS
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:45 am

The true Karmapa is the one who is the heir to the mindstream of all the previous Karmapas. Both of the two major candidates agree that there is only 1 Karmapa. For benefit of our own practice it's best to maintain pure perception and let the linage teachers sort of this out amongst themselves.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:19 pm

Good Morning Greg,

Situ Drogon Rinchen, who is considered the 'First' Situpa was entrusted with the 1st Karmapa's prediction of his rebirth. The title 'Tai Situpa' was first bestowed officially on Chokyi Gyaltsen.

In reality, the Karmapa is supposed to be 'self proclaimed' .....prediction letters etc. so whichever Regent recognises is only acting on the previous Karmapa's indications.

I understand your points, I really do, and like you :) I am quite happy to make all my points, then put disclaimer at the end saying that it really doesn't matter what I think :)

much love and best wishes,
s.

Stewart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:25 pm

ps. Greg, you are comfortable with your position and I am comfortable in mine...so lets leave it there, I honestly haven't even thought of these matters for years....until this thread!

best wishes,
s.

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Grigoris
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:39 pm

Nahhhh... I think I'm going to beat you with my opinion until you submit! Image
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Stewart
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:46 pm

:smile:
s.


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