More Trungpa talk

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby daelm » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:06 am

AdmiralJim wrote:
I relate to this sentiment completely - because my view differs from those who find Trungpa their cup of tea - I have be sworn at, called names and even a 'zealot' and even of never reading of any of his books


and vice versa. both approaches miss the point.


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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Lingpupa » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:48 am

I happen to notice a good example on another thread at http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7125&start=0.
In response to Nangwa's really rather harmless comment that
Maybe he was drunk
(which as we all should know he very likely was), illusionsgame wrote:
You were about 6 years old when the great mahasiddha passed into parinirvana, so I doubt you remember him well. For those of us fortunate enough to meet and receive teachings from him, your statement places you in the category of those who are ruled by their expectations and self-interest. That is the biggest obstacle of all, and the one he worked so hard to encourage us to go beyond.

Instead of denigrating yourself by perpetuating ignorance of his upaya (he never hid anything from us--nothing), you should read the statements of His Holiness the 16th Karmapa who referred to Trungpa Rinpoche as the Lord of Dharma. Or to those of His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse who said that he was "equal to myself". Thrangu Rinpoche who constantly praises him everytime the subject comes up. Do I need to go on?

So do us all a favour and go sit instead of reinforcing spiritual materialism and causing doubt in the minds of new students. Thanks.

Touchy, or what? And then this bit of judgemental defensiveness was applauded by Dhondrub, Silent Bob and Michaelb, along with the hypocrisy about Trungpa not having been hypocritical! That's why people still feel the urge to take Trungpa down!

Let him rest with whatever mixture of good and bad he did. Think he was terrific if you like, tell the world if you like, you're welcome to your opinion. But please don't rear up on your hind legs, proclaim your credentials and try to put down people who don't buy the Trungpa myth.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Karma Sherab » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:01 pm

Dear Dharma Siblings,

This is a free forum in that we can all express out opinions within agreed guidelines.

So now we know that various members were not or are not taken in by what was cutely referred to as "the Trungpa Myth". Ok but maybe it is time to agree to disagree as I sense acrimony developing. It almost appears to be a generation gap or a bit of tribalistic jingoism (like my team/father/Lama is better than your team/father/Lama etc).

Not every situation requires a comment from everyone. Nor do we need to defend, in all cases.

All I want to say is:

(i) that Trungpa Rinpoche was called a mahasiddha not by dudes or dudettes but by HH XVIth Karmapa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche along with countless other respected Lamas - so maybe they were all taken in by the "Trungpa Myth".

(ii)HH did also say that one should follow Trungpa Rinpoche's teaching but not copy his behaviour. This also was echoed by the other great Lamas but Westerners see a problem with this and see hypocracy rather than wisdom. This appears to be more af a cultural values difference.

(iii) HH Karmapa used to say that Trungpa Rinpoche, the Vajra Charya Vidhyadhara has done so much for sentient beings in the Dharma and engaged people in genuine practice. We are not talking about books here. For example at HH's funeral, Trungpa's disciples were able to perform the full Vajrayogini Mandala Ritual in English yet using Vajra Bell and damaru after having gone thru all the preliminary stages (Samayha/Vipassyana, Bodhicitta & Tonglen; full Ngondro, Vajra yogini Sadhana - the inner version daily and were proper Sadhakas while holding down nine to five jobs). Please see "The Lion's Roar" to see with your own eyes. These westerners then went on to practice Chakrasamvara and because of this continue into the most esoteric Kamtsang practices: – Jinasagara six yogas dzogchen etc. Tibetans were impressed, they did not think "injis” can do it - practice like Tibetan monks, ngagpas and Lamas IN ENGLISH!!!

(iv) Also self righteousness has become a dangerous trend in the West and the trend often leads to violence in our present world.

(v) Having said this, all Vajrasamaya is based on not disparaging gurus, vajra siblings or in fact anyone. We don't know why people do things but we deal out judgement confidently. This is not to mention why superior beings do things.

Personally I like to take HH Karmapa’s advice and say "I wouldn't do these things" and I can say this without passing judgement or comment as to others doing things I wouldn’t do - such as drink like Virupa.

As a final comment, maybe few people know this last point so please be patient with me - that the MVA Trungpa Rinpoche had in the UK not only left him partly paralysed but in chronic pain. A good friend of his - a Rinpoche from the same part of East Tibet who kept in touch with Trungpa Rinpoche told me about this and that this was the main reason for his drinking. Such a terrible fault not being able to bear infinite physical pain!

We should have softer hearts and keep in mind that in the seventies pain clinics were pretty well unheard of and Vicodin, Oxycontin etc were not readily prescribed or available. Also Tibetans culturally would turn to Alcohol for pain rather than modern opioid drugs. Come on folks, please don't be so ready to judge and deliver judgement on someone who people like Thomas Merton not to mention all the kagyu Lamas including Situ Rinpoche and Shamar Rinpoche and all the Khyentse Rinpoches, Kongtrul Rinpoches etc only had praise for. Maybe they were all suckers for myths. I would have thought one should tread carefully.

Then again, maybe Alex, Jim and the others know better and maybe even are capable of judging who is or isn’t enlightened. Pretty good if this is so but then, please share the secret – because if the basis for this judgement is what has been written in this thread, to me it appears awfully presumptuous.

The Trungpa myth - cute.

Don't mind me and I don't wish to offend. I am just red parrot that parrots and parrots and chatters a lot

KS

BTW, there is nothing wrong with not knowing, not believing - but perhaps the Tibetan aphorism "if one can't say something good, best to keep quiet" applies.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Tilopa » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:01 pm

Excellent post Karma Sherab, well said. :twothumbsup:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby udawa » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:07 pm

The Trungpa myth. The Guru Rinpoche myth. Same old myth.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:45 am

I have seen MUCH more aggression from Trungpa followers than I have from his critics. So perhaps the real question should be why Shambhalists, etc. feel the need to constantly defend their infallible master. It's well known that you can't harm an Enlightened being, so there's no need to defend. So why do it?
Everybody brings up the whole "disparaging the guru" thing as soon as somebody questions the easily questionable behavior of Trungpa.
Personally, I never met Trungpa. I'm not going to say whether or not he was an effective teacher, because I don't have first-hand experience of his teachings. However, I have had WAY too much exposure to some of his more notable students. I attended Naropa University for a year before I couldn't handle the cult-like atmosphere any longer. Some of his "Acharyas" and high-level students were my professors, and I even ended up dropping some of those courses, because it was just a big-ol indoctrination system. You couldn't question the actions or teachings of Trungpa. You couldn't call Shambhala Buddhist, but you couldn't call it non-Buddhist or else you'd get chewed out. Hell, in one class, I got in trouble for using the term "bodhicitta" instead of "sad heart of the warrior." And when I used the word "emptiness," the professor promptly informed me that we were not discussing Buddhist teachings, but rather the teachings of Shambhala. :toilet:
So yes, I suppose you could say that I have a problem with Trungpa's students. And the Shambhala organization that completely stripped the Trungpa Tulku of any and all rights of leadership in the organization that he originated. Hell, the Sakyong even enthroned himself the head of Surmang Monastery...and don't even get me started on the "royal family." Ew.

I was told at one point, by one of the all-powerful Dorje Kasung (the "Vajra guards that stripped those writers' clothes off at that party way back when...against their will) that my Lama is going to the vajra hells for leaving Trungpa after he acted EXTREMELY inappropriately. The Dorje Kasung were also, in my experience, always the most disrespectful, cocky, and intoxicated members of the classes I was in (alcoholism is rampant in the Boulder Shambhala community...not surprisingly...). Despite their lack of knowledge of Vajrayana, they paraded around as if they were Mahasiddhas themselves. It was extremely off-putting.
I went into my experience at Naropa with some preconceived notions about Trungpa, but it was the attitude and conduct of the Shambhala community that I was most disgusted with. I think the Trungpa issues have been beaten to death. His alcoholism was clearly out of hand (and PS, that car accident was a result of drunk driving...so I think blaming the car accident for his alcohol dependence is a weak excuse...), his cocaine addiction was a well covered-up issue as well, he was sexually inappropriate (asking a nun to have phone sex with you is never ok), and he could potentially be found guilty of murder in today's court system (telling somebody with AIDS to continue having unprotected sex with his students makes you somewhat responsible for the deaths that occurred because of it...). But since Trungpa is no longer around, his conduct really doesn't affect me. But his organization and students do. Those are where I have my issues. I think the mark of a great teacher is the attainment of his/her students.
Aaaaaand, in the wake of Losar/"Shambhala Day," I think there is a very unfortunate trend in the Shambhala community that has emerged in the last decade (not necessarily with the Vajradhatu folk...), where there is absolutely NO respect whatsoever for Tibet or the Tibetan people. Very few young Shambhalists have any interest in learning Tibetan language, examining the Tibetan culture, or even offering their thoughts to the atrocities occurring in Tibet. On March 10th, I was the only Naropa student to march in the Tibetan Uprising Day demonstration in Denver, and hell, my Tibetan language professor didn't even give me an excused absence for it. My grade dropped because of it. I talked to an older Tibetan man at the protest, and he told me that he was amazed to see a Naropa Student who cared about the Tibetan cause. I was very saddened by that.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just tired of being accused of simply "following the trend" of disliking Trungpa. Do I think he has some shitty karma to deal with now? Aboslutely. Did he make some amazing contributions to the spreading of Vajrayana in the west? Definitely. But Shambhala International makes me sick, and I think there needs to be some questioning of the intent of some of his students, and of the Shambhala organization in general.

Sorry if I offended anybody. If you have benefitted from Shambhala or Trungpa's teachings, awesome. Good for you. But don't tell me I'm deluded or ignorant for not accepting it.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Jinzang » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:05 am

I breathe a heavy sigh whenever this topic comes up, but I will repeat what I have said before. Both the 16th Karmapa and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche told me personally that Trungpa Rinpoche was a great, enlightened teacher. (Obviously, I had my doubts.) Anyone who respects them, and I don't see how anyone who calls themselves a Karma Kagyu cannot, will take their judgement seriously.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Greg » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:29 am

Jinzang wrote:I breathe a heavy sigh whenever this topic comes up, but I will repeat what I have said before. Both the 16th Karmapa and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche told me personally that Trungpa Rinpoche was a great, enlightened teacher. (Obviously, I had my doubts.) Anyone who respects them, and I don't see how anyone who calls themselves a Karma Kagyu cannot, will take their judgement seriously.


Be that as it may, the question remains, what does it actually entail to be a great, enlightened teacher? Infallibility? Omnibenevolence? The obviation of the need for any oversight whatsoever? It's surprising how infrequently these question are raised in Tibetan Buddhist circles. One can take their judgement seriously and still have these questions.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:54 am

Jinzang wrote:I breathe a heavy sigh whenever this topic comes up, but I will repeat what I have said before. Both the 16th Karmapa and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche told me personally that Trungpa Rinpoche was a great, enlightened teacher. (Obviously, I had my doubts.) Anyone who respects them, and I don't see how anyone who calls themselves a Karma Kagyu cannot, will take their judgement seriously.


HH Penor Rinpoche said that "Jetsunma" Akhon Lhamo is a Tulku...and Stephen Segal...
I'm with Greg. Faith is great. But there needs to be a difference between faith in a Vajra Master and faith in a cult leader. If, as soon as somebody says a Guru is enlightened, we throw away all of our questions and concerns about their validity, then we are directly going against the teachings of Shakyamuni.
Hell, it's said that you should spend 5 years with a Lama before even considering them to be your teacher...it's important to examine the Guru, because they are the mold that shapes your enlightened form.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby catmoon » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:16 am

JinpaRangdrol's earlier long post has drawn some protest from members of the board.

I've gone over the post, and found that when he expresses personal opinions, they are presented as just that. He puts before us some undeniable and unpleasant experiences he has had. I'm sure there are members who can provide stories of happier experiences. I believe Jinpa has excercised no small amount of restraint in composing his post, for he seems clearly outraged.

It is difficult to deny that in both Western and Buddhist terms, the behaviour of Trungpa Rinpoche was something of an outrage. A Rinpoche that has to be carried to his throne to give a Dharma talk because he is too drunk to walk is well over the line of Western standards for a religious leader, and in violation of a basic Buddhist precept as well.

However, it is also difficult to deny the impact he had on Buddhism in the West, and it is impossible to deny that many found his teachings inspirational.

A man who embodies such contrasts, this living contradiction in terms, this impossible guru, cannot be dismissed, nor can his legacy ever be free from uncomfortable questions. This is, so to speak, the cross his followers will have to bear for a very long time.

As a moderator, I cannot claim to be comfortable with the post in question, but I am even less comfortable with suppressing one side or the other of his story. The man was a living paradox, it is the essence of his story, and the whole story should be known. So I will not be calling for any edits.

I would like to ask writers in this thread to ease off on the attacks on Trungpa, at least for a short while. Those who follow his teachings in good faith are not benefitted by such things, and indeed may be become angry and embittered over them. Among such followers are some of our oldest, wisest and kindest members.

The dirty laundry has been hung out, and the points freely made. It's time to rest for a while.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Karma Sherab » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:33 am

Jampala & 0thers,

You are quite right!

HHDL has always warned that you must examine a guru [i]before[/i] you take major empowerments and commit yourself.

I apologise as I didn't know you were one of Trungpa Rinpoche's chelas.

If I am mistaken, and you are not, then what is the point of arguing about his enlightenment or otherwise. If you don't like or cannot fathom his behaviour - that is in itself fair enough but why argue and engage in what may be seen by devotees of Trunpa Rinpoche (who would surely be "senior" in the lay and arya sangha who see things differently) as throwing mud? Ofcourse they will be defensive about their Guru! Wouldn't you be? Actually, the samaya requires it.

According to teachings on Guru devotion, even if you start out with a Guru whose behaviour you later find unfathomable, the rule of not disparaging still applies as the root of all Vajra samaya.

However, there is no place for blind devotion in the Dharma - you may go to that Guru and say "Rinpoche or Khenla (or whatever)- I don't understand your behaviour and would like to leave your tutelage and find another Guru". There are few if any who would object.

To disparage (make smaller, put-down or diss or doubt his/her dharma) but more importantly to voice such things to others, is an infraction of root Samaya and suggests you know better than the lineage Gurus.

I am sorry for being so blunt but no one is encouraging a cult in this case. We all know about Stephen Segal - and Jetsunma Akhong Lhammo but we shouldn't speak badly of Penor Rinpoche - don't you agree? What benefit?

The last thing is that none of these great masters – nor Trungpa Rinpoche are alive anymore, so they cannot even speak up for their opinions and reasons. This is almost like a journalistic “in absentia” trial.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Dhondrub » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:36 am

JinpaRangdrol wrote:
Jinzang wrote:I breathe a heavy sigh whenever this topic comes up, but I will repeat what I have said before. Both the 16th Karmapa and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche told me personally that Trungpa Rinpoche was a great, enlightened teacher. (Obviously, I had my doubts.) Anyone who respects them, and I don't see how anyone who calls themselves a Karma Kagyu cannot, will take their judgement seriously.


HH Penor Rinpoche said that "Jetsunma" Akhon Lhamo is a Tulku...and Stephen Segal...
I'm with Greg. Faith is great. But there needs to be a difference between faith in a Vajra Master and faith in a cult leader. If, as soon as somebody says a Guru is enlightened, we throw away all of our questions and concerns about their validity, then we are directly going against the teachings of Shakyamuni.
Hell, it's said that you should spend 5 years with a Lama before even considering them to be your teacher...it's important to examine the Guru, because they are the mold that shapes your enlightened form.


Well, this is obviously not about examining the Guru as I suppose nobody here is planning to take the 11th Trungpa Tulku to his Guru as he passed into parinirvana 25 years ago.

Also there is a difference between Mr. Segal being recognized a Tulku and CTR . Obviously CTR was a recognized as a Tulku while he was still a baby. The point with masters like HH Karmapa,HH Dilgo Khyentse, Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Kyabje Tenga Rinpoche, Situ Rinpoche, the late Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche,Khenpo Tsültrim Gyamtso, Khandro Rinpoche and what have you is that these masters didnt just say CTR was a Tulku ( who cares about that), all of them endorsed his Dharma activity and him as being an authentic Mahasiddha. My mother told me( who I trust with this and who never was disciple of ctr) that she was in a room with HH the 16th Karmapa when HH was approached by some gentlemen from Scotland who complained about CTR, what HH replied was that CTR and him are like the same person and whatever CTR does is like HH perfoming it himself.
Nobody asks you trust these masters or CTR, but it is still questionable why you try to disparage a Vajramaster on an internetforum. What harm are you trying to prevent by pointing out your percieved flaws of CTR? You are obviously being a pain in the ass for the disciples of this master( who are btw not all shambhalians but many Nyingmapas and Kagyus). How would you like it if people started to badmouth your Guru and his disciples over here? Believe me I heard some pretty controversial shit...

Anyway I think Karma Sherab said it all

best

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby catmoon » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:42 am

Hokay hokay. It seems the flames are being fanned ever higher. Time for stronger action. Topic locked, 48 hours.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Eeshwarishankar » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:25 pm

Note: New to forum usage; need to edit poem, can't figure out how... so reposting. Moderator, please delete previous post. Thank you.

Trungpa: A Short Take

Alas, the seer sat mired in samsara,
sexed, sake-d and stoned...
even as he lit the fire beneath their butts,
guiding with compassion, "no bs"
Some learned to tread skillfully, life,
ending shenpa, kind, wise Pema among them
He lit their fire, but here's the rub,
the mystery, the eternal koan, how?
The mix of dark and light, why?
Anguished, disturbing,
a healer who cannot heal himself,
Why, why, are the greats this way?
The question crazily haunted,
Until melting, finally, to acceptance,
Embracing the marvel, the muck and the mystery,
easing into the mean, finally arriving.

Ishwari Shankar
Searching...
Last edited by Eeshwarishankar on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:29 pm

Jikan wrote:the Ken Wilber people quoting a Zen teacher's comments on Trungpa:

http://integrallife.com/member/kmartins ... lain-crazy


Hi,

this is the first time I'm reading this thread, and unfortunately the above link is dead. Is this the article in question?

http://integral-life-home.s3.amazonaws.com/IntegralPost_2-20-12.html

Bye
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nemo » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:40 pm

Ken Wilbur. Now there is a car wreck of ego inflation and hubris.

Trungpa's students were profoundly spiritually awakened by this very strange Lama. I would have liked to have met him. The man was the essence of unpredictability.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Stewart » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:49 pm

Eeshwarishankar wrote:Note: New to forum usage; need to edit poem....


....deleting it might have been a better idea.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Eeshwarishankar » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:15 am

Stewart wrote:
Eeshwarishankar wrote:Note: New to forum usage; need to edit poem....


....deleting it might have been a better idea.


Maybe I got bit by a Vogon. :crying:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Stewart » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:14 pm

Eeshwarishankar wrote:
Stewart wrote:
Eeshwarishankar wrote:Note: New to forum usage; need to edit poem....


....deleting it might have been a better idea.


Maybe I got bit by a Vogon. :crying:


More like Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings :smile:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby catmoon » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:39 pm

I thought it wasn't bad really. Kinda controversial, but good poetry often is.
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