the great vegetarian debate

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Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:41 pm

According to the doctors who produced the documentary Forks Over Knives a vegan diet heals many cancers as well as veins and arteries that are clogged with cholesterol. The documentary also says that vegans are protected from osteoporosis and diabetes. Forks Over Knives is worth watching several times.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby padma norbu » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:11 pm

i enjoy it, personally... i eat meat when it is offered, but otherwise not. I always feel the difference; meat makes you feel like filth, basically. Is Forks Over Knives still streaming on Netflix? I can check in an instant, of course, just being lazy.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby Jesse » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:48 pm

I have been thinking about trying vegetarianism at least, vegan-ism may be a bit much.. My body sometimes will not lose the feeling of hunger until I eat meat.. how long does it take for that to go away?

What were your experiences in switching to a no meat diet?
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:59 pm

edearl wrote:According to the doctors who produced the documentary Forks Over Knives a vegan diet heals many cancers as well as veins and arteries that are clogged with cholesterol. The documentary also says that vegans are protected from osteoporosis and diabetes. Forks Over Knives is worth watching several times.


It's important to mention that not any vegan diet will produce these results. In fact, vegans can easily be far more unhealthy than meat eaters, if they are not conscientious. Many damaging processed foods are technically vegan - such as refined flour, poor-quality plant fats (including hydrogenated oils), processed sugar, just to name a few. So I think a diet based on whole foods is the key. If someone is eating a typical diet of developed nations consisting of processed foods, fast foods, etc - then I think it's far more skillful to start eliminating these foods than to eliminate animal products per se. Then when you have stabilized on a diet based on organic whole grains, legumes, fruits & vegetables, pasture-raised animal products - then one may be able to transition to less animal products, and possibly eliminate them completely. But I've known many who went straight to vegan, but found they had no idea what to eat, other than processed soy and wheat "meat," vegan pizzas, etc - and their health suffered for it.

Now I haven't seen the film mentioned, and I imagine that the type of vegan diet promoted in the film is a healthy one - I just thought I'd post the above for the casual reader, so they don't have an unrealistic idea about a generalized "vegan diet."
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby rory » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:34 am

When I went from meat eater to veg finally 99% vegan. A very helpful thing is to always allow yourself,a monthly treat. Whatever you want. I used to salivate over the idea of hamburgers, ribs etc but after time went by they appealed less to me. Always give yourself this guilt-free option, otherwise you'll obsess. Sometimes I feel I must have meat/fish and I have it, no guilt.

Also you don't have to be perfect in any way. I'd suggest making chili with veggie soy bit & having an ear of corn, side of quinoa, or even easier put it all in a baked potato. Another easy recipe is w.w. spagetthi with faux meat sauce and toss in some frozen veggies. Quick and so healthful. Do go to whole grains, the only processed food I eat are meat substitutes, since my family likes them and I get lots of protein that way.

I hope this is helpful, never think you have to be %100. Take your time & start with easy recipes. I did & now I'm close to a gourmet vegan cook :smile: My dad is 87 became veg/vegan at 70. He has no arthritis, rhumatism, no prostate problems, he is mentally acute, never gets a cold, and goes to the gym with me. Everyone thinks he's much younger and is astounded when they find out his true age. I'm writing this to encourage you. Eating animals has karma: bad health & early aging.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby Jesse » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:59 am

Thanks, definitely helpful information.

At this point I think my tastes for meat may be more addictive in nature than anything, so much grease, sugar etc. I have noticed at least with soda that after I quit drinking it, I really have no desire to anymore..
Anyways, I think I will try veggy spaghetti tonight, sounds very good actually!

:thanks:
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby Nemo » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:58 am

Forks Over Knives is very ironic at times. About 15 minutes in they talk about diets high in animal protein causing cancer. In an Indian study mice on a very low animal protein diet exhibited less cancer than mice on a high animal protein diet. The mice were poisoned by aflatoxin. A fungal toxin found on fruits, veggies and grains. Especially nuts and legumes like peanuts. Liver cancer being one of the most common cancers among Vegans who ate tons of nuts back in the day when we didn't check for aflatoxin, probably including Steve Jobs.

Rats on the high animal protein diet got cancer. Fact! *
*But they all lived.
40% of the low animal protein diet rats died and the survivors showed significantly more liver necrosis than the carnivores.

But they didn't get cancer.

Stats show an insignificant difference between the cancer rates of veggies and omnivores.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby kirtu » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:34 am

edearl wrote:The documentary also says that vegans are protected from ... diabetes.


I'll check it out. I'm not vegan or vegetarian but I rarely eat meat (so twice a year on average by one measure except for tsok [Tibetan Buddhist feasts]). However my sole source of water is Dr. Pepper (and lately just Pepsi because my Chinese order out place doesn't have Dr. Pepper). This is a sure danger for diabetes over time no matter how well I eat otherwise.

Do they talk about something like this? Soy milk has just gotten too expensive.

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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby rory » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Before there was Forks over Meat, there was the Adventist study; it's a continuing 50 year study on Seventh Day Adventists by the NIH , Adventists advocate a vegan diet, though they have members who are veg & meat eaters, so it makes for a great study as they have same beliefs, lifestyle (no smoking etc) & they can really compare. And their longevity and fitness is phenomenal.

Sam's Club has cheap soy milk, the local Jains I know shop there. If you want you can make it yourself, it's not hard & you have the leftover okara which is nourishing. You can avoid diabetes, my dad's mother had adult onset, my dad and I love sweets but are prudent, he doesn't have diabetes and I won't get it either. What I do is cook healthy at home but when I go out to eat with friends I have whatever I want. Try that.

For those wanting to try veg meals, just give it a whirl once or twice a week; that's great. Don't ever force yourself. Vegweb is a great resource for homey recipes:
http://vegweb.com/
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:55 am

I remember a feminist sociological account that goes along the same line, but looks at the overall evolution of patriarchal society.
The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams
http://www.caroljadams.com/spom.html
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:28 am

I used to think that male aggression and the need to compete was just the way men's hormones made them.

However, most of the aggression and fighting I see on the streets (and in driving) now seems to be from young women.

In my experience, hormones seem to play a far larger part in the desire to fight than food. I do know that chocolate can help with PMS, but not of any male equivalent.

On another foodie topic - cow's milk has now been identified as having great qaulities in muscle recovery after a workout etc. All this research, 'proving' that it is a 'super-food' and much better than protein shakes - and all they had to do was work out that 'whey protein' is a bit of a give-away to the origins of the stuff people have used for years.

Nemo - if the vegetarian food you eat leaves you feeling like you have low blood-sugar, it may just be a matter of increasing slow-release carbs, such as oats. In fact, you have to be really careful with many processed veggie foods as they can have huge amounts of sugar and fats such as palm oil. I find it helps if I knit my own muesli. :)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Eating animals and animal products (eggs and dairy) damage epithelial cells in blood vessels, which result in plaque buildup and closure of capilaries, veins and arteries--ultimately causing heart attacks. Meat and animal products also cause cancer, osteoporosis, and type 2 diabetes. (See documentary Forks over Knives and/or read Dr. McDougal's books. Eat vegan and grow healthy--a vegan diet reverses the effects of eating meat and animal products.

After eating vegan for only 2 months, I am off blood pressure meds and Tricor for high triglyceride, and my chelosterol is now abnormally low (still taking pravastatin but expect to be taken off soon). Moreover, my need for diabetes meds is less than before I began eating vegan.

AFAIK eating vegan is a miracle.

And, the grain saved to feed animals (approx. 8x by weight meat produced) can feed many starving people.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:39 pm

The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:56 pm

Nemo wrote:The science behind the claims in Forks Over Knives is so selectively chosen that it can't really be taken seriously. Though the subjects on the low animal protein group did not exhibit cancer 40% of them died and exhibited greater levels of liver necrosis than the high animal protein group. 100% of the high animal protein group survived.

The science so far says that in large groups it all evens out. There is very little difference between veggies and ominvores outcomes. Some sub groups thrive on either diet. One in 40,000 can actually die from a purely vegetarian diet. Many others thrive once they give up meat products, especially the saturated fat.

I'm finding that I can go veggie for days now by supplementing carnitine. I merely have to up from 500mg a day to 1 gram. This is quite fascinating.


Please give references.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby pemachophel » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:49 pm

As Tibetan, Ayurvedic, and Chinese medicines all teach, no one diet is correct for everyone. As a retired traditional Chinese doctor with more than 30 years clinical experience, anytime I hear anyone suggesting that anything (including water and oxygen) is universally good for everyone, I know I'm hearing partisan propaganda, not truly well-informed, wise, and experienced health care advice. :soapbox:
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:52 pm

padma norbu wrote:i enjoy it, personally... i eat meat when it is offered, but otherwise not. I always feel the difference; meat makes you feel like filth, basically. Is Forks Over Knives still streaming on Netflix? I can check in an instant, of course, just being lazy.

Still on Netflix.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:05 pm

ghost01 wrote:I have been thinking about trying vegetarianism at least, vegan-ism may be a bit much.. My body sometimes will not lose the feeling of hunger until I eat meat.. how long does it take for that to go away?

What were your experiences in switching to a no meat diet?


People are usually addicted to the flavor of meat, and breaking an addiction can be difficult. One must make a commitment and be strong. Once I made the commitment, stopping to eat meat was not difficult, and after two months being able to stop blood pressure medication and Tricor (for high triglycerides) made me very happy and reinforced my commitment--continuing is easy.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:09 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
edearl wrote:According to the doctors who produced the documentary Forks Over Knives a vegan diet heals many cancers as well as veins and arteries that are clogged with cholesterol. The documentary also says that vegans are protected from osteoporosis and diabetes. Forks Over Knives is worth watching several times.


It's important to mention that not any vegan diet will produce these results. In fact, vegans can easily be far more unhealthy than meat eaters, if they are not conscientious. Many damaging processed foods are technically vegan - such as refined flour, poor-quality plant fats (including hydrogenated oils), processed sugar, just to name a few. So I think a diet based on whole foods is the key. If someone is eating a typical diet of developed nations consisting of processed foods, fast foods, etc - then I think it's far more skillful to start eliminating these foods than to eliminate animal products per se. Then when you have stabilized on a diet based on organic whole grains, legumes, fruits & vegetables, pasture-raised animal products - then one may be able to transition to less animal products, and possibly eliminate them completely. But I've known many who went straight to vegan, but found they had no idea what to eat, other than processed soy and wheat "meat," vegan pizzas, etc - and their health suffered for it.

Now I haven't seen the film mentioned, and I imagine that the type of vegan diet promoted in the film is a healthy one - I just thought I'd post the above for the casual reader, so they don't have an unrealistic idea about a generalized "vegan diet."


You are correct. Three books written by Dr. McDougal can help with assuring a proper vegan diet.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:12 pm

ghost01 wrote:Thanks, definitely helpful information.

At this point I think my tastes for meat may be more addictive in nature than anything, so much grease, sugar etc. I have noticed at least with soda that after I quit drinking it, I really have no desire to anymore..
Anyways, I think I will try veggy spaghetti tonight, sounds very good actually!

:thanks:


People learn to like what they eat, and loose desire for foods they stop eating. I once ate cheeseburgers and loved them. However, after many years of not eating cheeseburgers, they now have a disgusting fatty flavor.
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Re: Vegan Diet

Postby edearl » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:18 pm

Nemo wrote:Forks Over Knives is very ironic at times. About 15 minutes in they talk about diets high in animal protein causing cancer. In an Indian study mice on a very low animal protein diet exhibited less cancer than mice on a high animal protein diet. The mice were poisoned by aflatoxin. A fungal toxin found on fruits, veggies and grains. Especially nuts and legumes like peanuts. Liver cancer being one of the most common cancers among Vegans who ate tons of nuts back in the day when we didn't check for aflatoxin, probably including Steve Jobs.

Rats on the high animal protein diet got cancer. Fact! *
*But they all lived.
40% of the low animal protein diet rats died and the survivors showed significantly more liver necrosis than the carnivores.

But they didn't get cancer.

Stats show an insignificant difference between the cancer rates of veggies and omnivores.


Reference please.

One can be poisoned by salmonella from eating chicken and other birds, and other pathogens that consume other kinds of meat. One must be careful not to eat any food that is infested with a pathogen.
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