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 Post subject: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:39 am 
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Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche said that it is not appropriate to add the Ganapuja to the Purification of the Six Lokas practice; and I'm guessing that this is because the consumption of even a small amount of alcohol would interfere with the said purification process.

Does this mean that we should, for example, perform Six Lokas sessions in the morning and then perform the Ganapuja at night?

Or should we just temporarily substitute non-alcoholic grape juice for the Ganapuja, so that we are not consuming alcohol at all on the same day or days that we are doing the Six Lokas practice?

I'm asking because the reason was not given for why it is inappropriate to add the Ganapuja to the Six Lokas practice.

Another question I have, is which would be better:

To have Mantras and Invocations memorized before practicing, so that we aren't trying to recite from a book while trying to practice?

Or would it be better to start practicing as soon as possible, and recite from books (whether it be for the Ganapuja, Mandarava practice, Invocations of Guardians, Song of the Vajra, etc.) until we eventually memorize everything?


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 am 
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When I did a 6 lokas retreat I just did Ganapuja in a separate session.

Use the books.
You will naturally memorize things but dont worry about trying to.
There is nothing wrong with using the texts.
It's pretty easy to memorize the short tun but the book is still a part of the practice for me at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:37 am 
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I'm not familiar with the instructions for the versions of the 6 lokas practices Rinpoche transmits - my 6 lokas practice is from a different lineage - so I won't venture a guess as to why it would be "inappropriate" to add ganapuja to the 6 lokas practice. But I will say I highly doubt it has anything to do with conventional concerns about whether or not one eats meat or consumes alcohol. The only thing I'll say is maybe the idea is to fully concentrate on thoroughly obliterating the seeds for rebirth in any of the 6 realms on the strength of one's own three kayas, and to really be confident that one has accomplished that, rather than feeling the need to supplement that with something else. But maybe I'm wrong.

As for memorization, I say it's best to get to practicing now while you still can, and let the memorization occur naturally. I do tend to think my practice is deeper when I have things memorized, but then again sometimes I purposely open up my sadhanas to read things (say, for instance, the four thoughts that turn the mind) because it sometimes helps me generate a clearer picture or sense of what I'm considering if it feels too rote and vague by memory alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Ganapuja and the Purification of Six Lokas are 2 different practices!
It is essential to keep them exactly as Rinpoche has transmitted to us. It is not good to invent things...
You could practise them in 2 different sessions or if you have not time for both, then you can practise the one of them.
Mantras and Invocations are not necessary to be memorized. It is better to practise right now and through repetition they are naturally memorized after sometime. :meditate:

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche said that it is not appropriate to add the Ganapuja to the Purification of the Six Lokas practice; and I'm guessing that this is because the consumption of even a small amount of alcohol would interfere with the said purification process.

I really doubt this is the reason but you could ask him or one of the SMS teachers. Though I now remembered hearing him say this sometime, I completely forgot about it till now. I think I've never had the idea to combine them though. In general we can combine Ganapuja with various Yidam practices.


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To have Mantras and Invocations memorized before practicing, so that we aren't trying to recite from a book while trying to practice?

Or would it be better to start practicing as soon as possible, and recite from books (whether it be for the Ganapuja, Mandarava practice, Invocations of Guardians, Song of the Vajra, etc.) until we eventually memorize everything?

Like the others I think the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Ah, then the consensus here is to practice from the texts as soon as possible, instead of taking weeks to memorize everything first. :group: :twothumbsup:

With the exception of the Protectors Invocations/Mantras and the Song of the Vajra, I've had the rest of the short Tun memorized, and was doing it everyday for a while; until I realized that I needed to go back to the drawing board.

Anyway yeah Rinpoche did say that we can add the Ganapuja to Yidam practices, and that's where he made it a point to say to not add the Ganapuja to the Six Lokas practice.

I need to reread and study more the chapter on the Four Thoughts in The Precious Vase, and the chapter on the Four Thoughts in Longchenpa's Kindly Bent to Ease Us Volume 1.

It looks like the consensus is also that it's okay to do the Ganapuja and the Six Lokas practice on the same day, as long as we do them in separate sessions.

Excellent. Thank you all for your advice. :anjali:


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:14 am 
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:oops: I was actually thinking of the Four Immeasurables.

About the Four Thoughts though, if you think about it, the Four Thoughts are included in the Outer Rushen; so even if one doesn't currently have the means for a secluded Rushen retreat, doing the Outer Rushen mentally as one's Four Thoughts preliminary practice may still be of extra benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
:oops: I was actually thinking of the Four Immeasurables.

About the Four Thoughts though, if you think about it, the Four Thoughts are included in the Outer Rushen; so even if one doesn't currently have the means for a secluded Rushen retreat, doing the Outer Rushen mentally as one's Four Thoughts preliminary practice may still be of extra benefit.

Don't mix things up. Rushen is Rushen and four thoughts that turn the mind towards dharma are the four thoughts that turn the minds towards dharma.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:13 am 
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The reason for not adding the Ganapuja to 6 Lokas practice is simple; for doing Ganapuja you need to be transformed into a deity while doing 6 Lokas you're not. Other then that there isn't anything else to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:30 am 
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Pero

I was going to explain my reasoning on that more; but it would be a waste of time, really. So I digress, as you're basically right about that overall.

Pawel

In Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's explanation of the Six Lokas practice, there is Deity transformation; but it's obviously different in the Dzogchen Community (at least with the common Dzogchen Community Six Lokas practice anyway), as the Bönpo Six Lokas practice is apparently more mixed with Tantra.

*Edit* Wait, I don't recall reading in the Ganapuja book that we need to transform during Ganapuja. I just thought that we can transform during Ganapuja. Well, I was going to read it again anyway, so I'll find out soon enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Pero

I was going to explain my reasoning on that more; but it would be a waste of time, really. So I digress, as you're basically right about that overall.

Damn and here I was thinking of the earlier version of your post and getting reading to argue. :tongue:
Seriously though, if you're interested I can PM you a bit more about why I said that, because we can't speak about rushan openly.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Pero



In Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's explanation of the Six Lokas practice, there is Deity transformation; but it's obviously different in the Dzogchen Community (at least with the common Dzogchen Community Six Lokas practice anyway),

The six lokas rushen in the Yeshe Lama is also done without transformation.
The practice is very similar to Rinpoche's.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:16 am 
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Pero

Oh so you saw my post before I edited it lol

It's alright, I got your point. Thanks though. Since the Outer Rushen is not practical for a non-secluded retreat situation, rather than do it just mentally, I think that I'd rather skip the Outer Rushen and start with the Inner Rushen anyway, and begin each practice session with the Four Thoughts.

Nangwa

Aren't there two or three Six Lokas practices in the Dzogchen Community, with the one in The Precious Vase being the most condensed Six Lokas practice?


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:00 am 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Nangwa

Aren't there two or three Six Lokas practices in the Dzogchen Community, with the one in The Precious Vase being the most condensed Six Lokas practice?


Hey Lhug,
I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
The six lokas practice is pretty simple really. Rinpoche's version and the one in the Yeshe Lama are very similar with just minor tweaks in the Longsal cycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:
Nangwa

Aren't there two or three Six Lokas practices in the Dzogchen Community, with the one in The Precious Vase being the most condensed Six Lokas practice?


Hey Lhug,
I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
The six lokas practice is pretty simple really. Rinpoche's version and the one in the Yeshe Lama are very similar with just minor tweaks in the Longsal cycle.

It seems to me that basic Six Lokas practices in general are pretty similar if not totally same in all cycles of teachings.

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Could be mistaken, but I thought there is the 'common' (i.e. like the one in Yeshe Lama) version described in The Precious Vase, the Longsal version, and another one that combines the Six Lokas practice with Vajrasattva practice (or maybe this latter one is the Longsal version of the Six Lokas practice); for a total of two or three variations.

But like you said Pero, they're likely to all be nearly identicle, with maybe the exception of the Vajrasattva version that I'd heard of.

More info for anyone who's interested:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5393&hilit=semdzin&start=40#p73566


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Could be mistaken, but I thought there is the 'common' (i.e. like the one in Yeshe Lama) version described in The Precious Vase, the Longsal version, and another one that combines the Six Lokas practice with Vajrasattva practice (or maybe this latter one is the Longsal version of the Six Lokas practice); for a total of two or three variations.

Yeah that's the Longsal version. But actually there are two (or three) Longsal Purification of 6 lokas. The second one is very interesting with a kind of tsalung (requires kumbhaka).

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Kind of wish you hadn't told me that, because now I'm thinking "Oooohhh now I want to learn Kumbhaka to do that version". Nah, I can start with the basic practice, knowing that later in life it could only be beneficial to do a more advanced Six Lokas practice even if I've already completed a basic one.

Speaking of the Longsal cycle, I did want to start studying Longsal Teachings Volumes 1-4 in the relative near future; and it looks like Volume 1 (and the Longsal Preliminary Practices book) is sold out on every single Shang Shung website. What are the chances that it will get reprinted somewhat soon?


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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Kind of wish you hadn't told me that, because now I'm thinking "Oooohhh now I want to learn Kumbhaka to do that version". Nah, I can start with the basic practice, knowing that later in life it could only be beneficial to do a more advanced Six Lokas practice even if I've already completed a basic one.

Oh sorry, that's not what I meant. With "basic" I just meant the version used in most teachings (the one in PV). Didn't mean to say the others are more advanced, I think they are just different but achieve the same thing. You just do the one you can and/or like. Except if you follow SMS, then you have to complete the one in PV.

Quote:
Speaking of the Longsal cycle, I did want to start studying Longsal Teachings Volumes 1-4 in the relative near future; and it looks like Volume 1 (and the Longsal Preliminary Practices book) is sold out on every single Shang Shung website. What are the chances that it will get reprinted somewhat soon?

I don't know. That first volume does seem hard to get haha. Couple years back I had to get it from the US myself because Europe was out of stock. But the thing is that now these books are restricted to those who either received the teachings in a particular volume or received the Longsal root initiation.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzogchen Ganapuja
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:44 pm 
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Yeah in seeing that it includes Tsa-Lung I assumed that it's more "advanced". But I was just joking about implying that I wanted to put my "basic" Rushen practice on hold until I can learn the more "advanced" one you mentioned.

Rinpoche gave a Lung for the Longsal Preliminary Practices not too long ago, so does that mean that in receiving this Lung we are only allowed to have the Longsal Preliminary Practices book? Namdrol mentioned something about Longsal Preliminary Practices being found in Longsal Teachings Volume 3, so I figured that in having received the said Lung we would be authorized to study Longsal Teachings books up to and including Volume 3.


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