Yidam and Dzogchen

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:43 pm

muni wrote:Ngondro is perfect, isn't harming and "pure Dzogchen" is simple concept. But Dzogchen introduction can without ngondro. What we meet should be appreciated. What others meet, is our rejoice.

To elaborate or to examine is nothing but adding concepts. To make effort or to cultivate is exhausting our being. To focus here, is a trap of further entanglement.
May these dissatisfying fabrications be cut from within. Like this Lama Mipham said.


Actually I never said that first you do the Ngondro then you get the introduction, you guys keep referring to Nondro and Yidam as preliminaries to Dzogche when the whole point of my discussion here is that they are normal Vajrayana practice to be applied when needed. Just take a look at Jigme Lingpas retreat schedule above.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:56 pm

Astus wrote:Am I mistaken in saying that realising rigpa is seeing the buddha-nature? If I'm correct, I can only wonder what else is there to attain beyond buddhahood.


Now, your recognition of the natural state, how long does it last? If it last 24 hours a day there is not a lot you have to do, you have attained the goal. All the practices we do is just to rest longer and longer in this splendid natural state.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:36 pm

Magnus,

That I am OK with. Do you think it is also possible to take resting itself as the practice without other methods?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:04 pm

Astus wrote:Magnus,

That I am OK with. Do you think it is also possible to take resting itself as the practice without other methods?


Some say they do, I'm not sure actually. My Guru suggest a 50-50 division of a session.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:43 pm

It seems to me that such a division of practice would be actually a balance of generation and completion forms. In that case then what is the difference between calling it Dzogchen or Maha- and Anuyoga, ie. deity yoga? Perhaps it'd be possible to make a distinction - similar to Kagyu Mahamudra - between tantric and essential Dzogchen.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:02 pm

heart wrote:
you guys keep referring to Nondro and Yidam as preliminaries to Dzogche when the whole point of my discussion here is that they are normal Vajrayana practice to be applied when needed.

/magnus


Expressed that way, I of course agree with ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:04 pm

heart wrote:
Astus wrote:Am I mistaken in saying that realising rigpa is seeing the buddha-nature? If I'm correct, I can only wonder what else is there to attain beyond buddhahood.


Now, your recognition of the natural state, how long does it last? If it last 24 hours a day there is not a lot you have to do, you have attained the goal. All the practices we do is just to rest longer and longer in this splendid natural state.

/magnus


... but then I disagree once more, how can a "mind practice" (deity generation) help to stay longer and longer in natural state ?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:06 pm

heart wrote:
Astus wrote:Magnus,

That I am OK with. Do you think it is also possible to take resting itself as the practice without other methods?


Some say they do, I'm not sure actually. My Guru suggest a 50-50 division of a session.

/magnus


some say this is the point ... the only possible point !

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:28 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Astus wrote:Am I mistaken in saying that realising rigpa is seeing the buddha-nature? If I'm correct, I can only wonder what else is there to attain beyond buddhahood.


Now, your recognition of the natural state, how long does it last? If it last 24 hours a day there is not a lot you have to do, you have attained the goal. All the practices we do is just to rest longer and longer in this splendid natural state.

/magnus


... but then I disagree once more, how can a "mind practice" (deity generation) help to stay longer and longer in natural state ?

Sönam

authentic "deity yoga" (with the intent and view of Dzogchen) is not a mind-based practice.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:51 pm

Nangwa wrote:authentic "deity yoga" (with the intent and view of Dzogchen) is not a mind-based practice.


Now I'm curious. Are you saying that there is an unintentional meditation on a deity? Or is it that "all appearances are the play of rigpa"; but in that case it'd be togal, wouldn't it? I'm starting to think it's quite impossible then to draw a line between the view of "emptiness is appearances" and "appearances are awareness". Then difference between Dzogchen and Mahayoga is eliminated. :?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:07 am

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Astus wrote:Am I mistaken in saying that realising rigpa is seeing the buddha-nature? If I'm correct, I can only wonder what else is there to attain beyond buddhahood.


Now, your recognition of the natural state, how long does it last? If it last 24 hours a day there is not a lot you have to do, you have attained the goal. All the practices we do is just to rest longer and longer in this splendid natural state.

/magnus


... but then I disagree once more, how can a "mind practice" (deity generation) help to stay longer and longer in natural state ?

Sönam


Well Sönam, if you are free from the mind there is no need to practice anything at all. Are you free from the mind?
The way yidam help you rest in the natural state is manifold depending on how seasoned you are as a practitioner. It is actually a big subject. The best would be to put that question to a really qualified teacher. The yidams come from the samboghakaya and there true nature is the natural state so in general I don't see why they need to be so "mind based", it is only our attitude that is the problem, no?



/magnus
Last edited by heart on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:18 am

Astus wrote:It seems to me that such a division of practice would be actually a balance of generation and completion forms. In that case then what is the difference between calling it Dzogchen or Maha- and Anuyoga, ie. deity yoga? Perhaps it'd be possible to make a distinction - similar to Kagyu Mahamudra - between tantric and essential Dzogchen.


The Dzogchen cycle I am most familiar with have a sadhana but have no other completion stage than the instructions in rushan, trechö and tögal. The sadhanas contained in Dzogchen cycles are often a lot shorter than mahayoga sadhanas and there language is different. The difference from the other inner Yanas is mainly the the view and the particular instructions of rushan trechö and tögal.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:27 am

Astus wrote:It seems to me that such a division of practice would be actually a balance of generation and completion forms. In that case then what is the difference between calling it Dzogchen or Maha- and Anuyoga, ie. deity yoga? Perhaps it'd be possible to make a distinction - similar to Kagyu Mahamudra - between tantric and essential Dzogchen.


Ati Yoga is without any position, any kind of attachment to any conceptual thing, no awaking by manufacture while Anu and Maha do.

Maha: phenomena are ultimately nonarising, relatively magical play.
Anu: cause is naturally pure space, effect is wisdom mandala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7BP-RDJspM
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:51 am

Magnus,

Could you clarify - and I believe this is Sönam's point - how sadhanas and a load of practices relate to the following:

"Mahamudra and Dzogchen training means not fabricating anything, just allowing the continuity of our natural state. This is not our habit. We must train in developing a new habit, but this practice is not meditation, but familiarization. When we finally arrive at the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation, there is nothing more to cultivate; there is not even an atom to meditate upon, and yet we are not distracted for even an instant. We need to train in this. It is also phrased as mental nondoing. ... In the guidance manuals for meditation, it is often phrased like this: Do not alter your present fresh wakefulness. Do not rearrange even as much as a hair tip. Just leave it exaclty as it is."
(Choky Nyima Rinpoche: "Familiarization" in Quintessential Dzogchen, p. 199)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:13 am

Nangwa wrote:authentic "deity yoga" (with the intent and view of Dzogchen) is not a mind-based practice.


I can accept that but it has nothing to do with Mahayoga, because in that case it is "spontaneous and without generation phase" ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:37 pm

Astus wrote:Magnus,

Could you clarify - and I believe this is Sönam's point - how sadhanas and a load of practices relate to the following:

"Mahamudra and Dzogchen training means not fabricating anything, just allowing the continuity of our natural state. This is not our habit. We must train in developing a new habit, but this practice is not meditation, but familiarization. When we finally arrive at the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation, there is nothing more to cultivate; there is not even an atom to meditate upon, and yet we are not distracted for even an instant. We need to train in this. It is also phrased as mental nondoing. ... In the guidance manuals for meditation, it is often phrased like this: Do not alter your present fresh wakefulness. Do not rearrange even as much as a hair tip. Just leave it exaclty as it is."
(Choky Nyima Rinpoche: "Familiarization" in Quintessential Dzogchen, p. 199)


Hi Astus,

Nice of you to provide a quote by my root Guru, it makes it easier to respond :smile: .
First "the natural state" is something that we have to discover, or recognize. Until we done that all practices we do, either with or without form, whatever we call them is a little superficial and conceptual and completely dependent on thought and mind. Your practice is to try to accumulate enough merit and wisdom to receive direct introduction and recognize the natural state.
After recognizing the natural state you realize all practices you do are aimed at stabilizing this recognition. So while practicing your Yidam it is very possible to just allow the continuity of the natural state. Of course if try to push it, it becomes fabricated so instead you just allow it to last as long as it does. The essence of the Yidam is the natural state so you are not drifting from your development stage. I feel a little strange trying to explain these things, you should read the books of Tulku Urgyen if you want to understand it better. Also both compassion and devotion are two powerful enhancement for the natural state. This is why Guru yoga is so important in Dzogchen. However, in general all practices are designed to empower your wisdom (at this point the natural state), compassion and devotion. So in no way do they impede the natural state. This is also why I doubt practicing "only" the natural state. You will force it and end up fabricate it.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:52 pm

muni wrote:
Astus wrote:It seems to me that such a division of practice would be actually a balance of generation and completion forms. In that case then what is the difference between calling it Dzogchen or Maha- and Anuyoga, ie. deity yoga? Perhaps it'd be possible to make a distinction - similar to Kagyu Mahamudra - between tantric and essential Dzogchen.


Ati Yoga is without any position, any kind of attachment to any conceptual thing, no awaking by manufacture while Anu and Maha do.

Maha: phenomena are ultimately nonarising, relatively magical play.
Anu: cause is naturally pure space, effect is wisdom mandala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7BP-RDJspM


You are just talking view here muni, not actual practice. In Nyingma many cycles of practice contain elements or complete instructions of all three inner tantras. How you practice depends on your understanding and not on what a particular practice is branded. So the view is not in the sadhana it is in the level of your recognition of the natural state.

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:28 pm

heart wrote:
muni wrote:
Astus wrote:It seems to me that such a division of practice would be actually a balance of generation and completion forms. In that case then what is the difference between calling it Dzogchen or Maha- and Anuyoga, ie. deity yoga? Perhaps it'd be possible to make a distinction - similar to Kagyu Mahamudra - between tantric and essential Dzogchen.


Ati Yoga is without any position, any kind of attachment to any conceptual thing, no awaking by manufacture while Anu and Maha do.

Maha: phenomena are ultimately nonarising, relatively magical play.
Anu: cause is naturally pure space, effect is wisdom mandala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7BP-RDJspM


You are just talking view here muni, not actual practice. In Nyingma many cycles of practice contain elements or complete instructions of all three inner tantras. How you practice depends on your understanding and not on what a particular practice is branded. So the view is not in the sadhana it is in the level of your recognition of the natural state.

/magnus


Yes. The Maha Anu Ati words are from Guru Rinpoche translations. In Primordial state: practice, practicioner. Ah peace! :namaste:
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:10 pm

muni wrote:
Yes. The Maha Anu Ati words are from Guru Rinpoche translations. In Primordial state: practice, practicioner. Ah peace! :namaste:


Yes, but Guru Rinpoche didn't respond to my post :smile: you did. Do you feel I misunderstood your post?

/magnus
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 pm

heart wrote:
muni wrote:
Yes. The Maha Anu Ati words are from Guru Rinpoche translations. In Primordial state: practice, practicioner. Ah peace! :namaste:


Yes, but Guru Rinpoche didn't respond to my post :smile: you did. Do you feel I misunderstood your post?

/magnus

No, there is the foolish idea passing, keep it easy and all will understand me. :anjali:
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