Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:58 pm

Jikan wrote:Seems to me that Wonhyo advocated a ninth consciousness on the basis of the Vajrasamadhi sutra (published as Cultivating Original Enlightenment). I know that Wonhyo himself was likely the compiler of that text. I bring it up because I'd like to know if this concept took hold in Korean Buddhism following Wonhyo, or if it was forgotten.



This sutra is well established to be a Korean composition.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby catmoon » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:12 pm

I wonder... does this ninth consciousness have anything to do with the "ninth Jhana" some people talk about?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby nirmal » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:13 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
nirmal wrote:The first five consciousnesses are the eye-consciousness and that of the ear,nose tongue and body which are also known as our senses

The sixth consciousness is equivalent to the scientific term "mind." In Theravada this is the main consciousness and contain the seventh and eighth.Thus Theravada does not admit any other consciousness.

The seventh consciousness, which holds the eighth consciousness as one's self is an object to be meditated away by sunyata samadhi

The eighth consciousness, emphasized in the Mahayana, contains all seeds, good or bad,from which the other seven types of consciousness are formed.

The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

Religions emphasize that there is a soul, a higher-self or spirit which is the master of a being who may descend into hell or ascend to heaven. It does not die and on it depends transmigration when it descends(in some religions) though it may unite with God when it ascends.

Buddhism admits this as only the eighth consciousness.Above the eighth consciousness,when it is sublimated through sublimation upon no-ego(sunyata), THERE IS NO SOUL AT ALL.

Thus when Buddhist say that there is no soul,it means that in Buddhahood, there is no soul but for common persons there are 'changable souls' which carry their lives wandering in transmigration.The 'soul' is the eighth consciousness, which should meditated away by sunyata samadhi to eventually become the wisdom of Buddhahood(C M Chen)


I see. Based on the above response from namdrol: This was something that was spread from an individual to China, but as far as I know this wasn't taught in any of the Tibetan schools. From what I've read they all only recognize alaya-vijnana.

Where is the source of that above quote?


http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw32/bk077.html
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby nirmal » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:
nirmal wrote:The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
)


There is no Buddhist tantra which teaches a "ninth" consciousness. It does not exist.



Consciousness is said to be six kinds in Hinayana, eight in Mahayana and nine in Vajrayana. No,N?


and upon further reading
"Usually in the Idealist School there are considered three transformations of consciousness. Actually this word transformation is a term in error. The auditory nerve or optic nerve is not transformed from the solar plexus. They all belong to one nerve system. Consciousness is not a form, hence it should have no transformation, but it does have different functions. Thus there are six functions as it is divided into by Hinayana, eight by Mahayana, and nine by Vajrayana; all for the sake of convenience of describing the different functions. "
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Aemilius » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:30 am

The verses at the end of Lankavatara Sutra in verse 9 mention eight and nine vijnañas, and verse 59 mentions two kinds of alaya.

The question is what exists after transformation if and when alaya gets destroyed? What do aryas see and perceive if their alaya has been detroyed or transformed?

Nagarjuna, not being a proponent of yogacara, nevertheless says in Mulamadhyamaka that there are four kinds of realms, three contaminated realms and the uncontaminated realm.

Pure alaya is implicit in the general yogacara, as a basis for the manifestation of uncontaminated realms.

T.D. Suzuki says that the tradition speaks of a Lankavatara of 36 000 slokas, the present sutra is much smaller, it includes and expands upon only part of the some 900 verses at the end of Lankavatara.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Aemilius » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:00 am

Correction: it is in the verses 13. and 59. in the Sagathakam of Lankavatara Sutra.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Son » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:13 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:Does anyone know who or what sect has taught or teaches about the amala-vijnana ("stainless" consciousness?)

As far as I know there was only one individual who taught this; an Indian by the name of Paramartha (499-569.) Also apparently the Nichiren sect teaches this, according to this website I found while doing an internet search of the subject: http://www.sgi.org/buddhism/buddhist-concepts/the-nine-consciousnesses.html Is that a legitimate source for what the Nichiren sect teaches? Because I thought it was based off the Lotus sutra and from reading the Lotus sutra: I didn't see any mention of an amala-vijnana?


First of all, this consciousness as it has always been present in Buddhism and was taught by Lord Gautama. It is the nibbana consciousness, pure, endless, and luminous all around.

Furthermore, as Malcolm implied, I doubt that anyone has legitimately taught it as being the "ninth consciousness." In the eight-consciousness scheme, it is held to be equal to the eighth consciousness. That is to say, the storehouse consciousness is simply derived from the substratum consciousness, from which nibbana is also cognizable.

The six sense consciousness plus perceptual consciousness (manas) are amalgamated by the substratum consciousness, and they are derived from it via the presence of the storehouse consciousness (eighth).

To put it into context of understanding, in dependent origination you might say that from ignorance arises intention, from which arises consciousness--storehouse consciousness, manas consciousness. From that arises name and form, and the sense bases (ergo the six sense consciousnesses emerge), giving rise to contact. So, in my mind, consciousness is depicted as contact-consciousnessnes, perceptual consciousness which gathers defilement, and substratum consciousness which includes storehouse consciousness.

Is that helpful at all? I always find putting teachings into context of dependent origination and/or aggregates illuminates them, especially under meditative practice.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:22 pm

Huifeng wrote:Do you think that it then may be a bit like the alayavijnana / tathagatagarbha distinction in texts like the Mahayanasamgraha? ie. that one is a general term, and the other is a term when it is purified, the person is accomplished?


I have never looked into the source of Alayavijnana in any in depth way, but its association with Tathagatagarbha Buddhism has given me the impression that its just another one of those audacious moves I associate with that stream of thought - they are unafraid to put a name to things Buddhists have traditionally avoided naming. They skip the hemming and hawing and negative descriptions and seem to just say, "Look, we all know the caveats - we're just going to go ahead and give a name to it so that we can move on and start talking about it." Of course naming these unnamable things has the tendency to encourage reification of these things in people's minds... I think naming has its advantages though...
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