Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
- Zenshin 善心
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Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
a continuation of the side-topic emerging from this thread - http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 385#p80385 and Namdrol's comments around page 5...
so i'm intrigued by the implications of Dzogchen being the final meaning of all non-Buddhist teachings and was wondering if anyone could help lay it out for me and clear up any misconceptions i might have about such a comment. i vaguely recall a debate in here about whether a priest could practice Dzogchen and still lay claim to being a Christian or not - perhaps this is related.
thing is, how does such a view avoid sinking into a warm fuzzy syncretism where all paths lead to the same destination. because, as appealing as such a stance may admittedly appear, are there not too many irreconcilable differences for this to be true? or have i read your comments all wrong Namdrol?
disclaimer: i don't know a great deal about Dzogchen and lay no claims to an interest in practising it (just happy with my own school pure and simple tbh) but i recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light and it did perk my interest in learning more about it. as such please keep any replies terminology-lite if poss, cheers
so i'm intrigued by the implications of Dzogchen being the final meaning of all non-Buddhist teachings and was wondering if anyone could help lay it out for me and clear up any misconceptions i might have about such a comment. i vaguely recall a debate in here about whether a priest could practice Dzogchen and still lay claim to being a Christian or not - perhaps this is related.
thing is, how does such a view avoid sinking into a warm fuzzy syncretism where all paths lead to the same destination. because, as appealing as such a stance may admittedly appear, are there not too many irreconcilable differences for this to be true? or have i read your comments all wrong Namdrol?
disclaimer: i don't know a great deal about Dzogchen and lay no claims to an interest in practising it (just happy with my own school pure and simple tbh) but i recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light and it did perk my interest in learning more about it. as such please keep any replies terminology-lite if poss, cheers
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Dharma is the ultimate consequence and Dzogchen is the result ... how could it not included all other paths?
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Did you mean to say "cause" instead of consequence?
The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
English is not my native language (as you may already know) ... but I thought ultimate consequence could correspond to Dzogchen being the final meaning of all non-Buddhist teachings
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
- Zenshin 善心
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:29 pm
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
-
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:44 am
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Sounds like marketing to me.
I've seen "My Reincarnation this morning, and I can say from what I've seen that it looks not to be the case in what I'm studying/teaching.
I've seen "My Reincarnation this morning, and I can say from what I've seen that it looks not to be the case in what I'm studying/teaching.
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Once more ... how could it be otherwise?catmoon wrote:I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
It would be stupid to tell him so ...catmoon wrote:Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- Zenshin 善心
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:29 pm
- Location: Fukuoka
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Anabaptist or Pentecostal? lol, no - i'd be surprised if he did! and i'm puzzled how they can come down to Dzogchen - how do you do away with fundamental tenets that lead to big discrepencies between the two?catmoon wrote:Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Easy. You could be completely wrong and all of Buddhism too.Sönam wrote:Once more ... how could it be otherwise?catmoon wrote:I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.
Sönam
Less drastically, maybe a tiny error was made at some point in the past that snowballed into a mass of mistakes.
Those are the kinds of arguments the pastor will throw at you. And you can throw them back at him too. But nobody can prove anything.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Of course it matters, but if you see all religion (even those believing in an all-creating God) as a step on a great progressive path leading to freedom/buddhahood it has a sense ... but don't tell your pastor about (even in the Buddhist mandala don't tell it to loud)dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- Zenshin 善心
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:29 pm
- Location: Fukuoka
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
okay, now i'm getting it. ty Sonam!Sönam wrote:Of course it matters, but if you see all religion (even those believing in an all-creating God) as a step on a great progressive path leading to freedom/buddhahood it has a sense ... but don't tell your pastor about (even in the Buddhist mandala don't tell it to loud)dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
Sönam
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.
- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith
oroka
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
I think my vehicles are inconcievable means that all the vehicles there are originate from the state of Dzogchen. Though it is so they can be included into two categories. Those leading to liberation (nirvana) and those leading to continuous cyclic existence (samsara).Namdrol wrote: Though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.
--Rig pa rang shar tantra, the main explanatory tantra of Dzogchen.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
I don't think it is that controversial. There is a Dzogchen that is a body of beliefs and practices within Buddhism and a Dzogchen which is a synonym for the reality of things that is the former's namesake. All statements about Dzogchen as the essence of all teachings refers to the latter. Since the latter is simply reality, correctly apprehended, I think all Buddhists and non-Buddhists would agree that their aim is the correct apprehension of reality.catmoon wrote: The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
...
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Actually, the point being made is that Dzocghen is the cause and basis for all dharma traditions, whether of samsara or nirvana. But I don't expect anyone to accept that.catmoon wrote: The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
And since, as you say, Dzogchen is not merely a school or method, but an epithet of reality as it actually is, it is argued that anything ever taught by the Buddha, being someone who'd realized reality as it actually is, had the intention of carrying people of greater or lesser spiritual acumen in the direction of realizing reality as it actually is - the great perfection, or Dzogchen.Acchantika wrote:I don't think it is that controversial. There is a Dzogchen that is a body of beliefs and practices within Buddhism and a Dzogchen which is a synonym for the reality of things that is the former's namesake. All statements about Dzogchen as the essence of all teachings refers to the latter. Since the latter is simply reality, correctly apprehended, I think all Buddhists and non-Buddhists would agree that their aim is the correct apprehension of reality.catmoon wrote: The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
I guess I'm not understanding the original question. Are you asking if a Christian can attain Enlightenment? If so, I believe yes it is possible. Religion itself is only a vehicle what matters is awareness. Ending the duality. The end is only the other side of the same river.
Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...
Because if you said that you would be wrong. Dzogchen is like reaching the Ph.D level of study when all you have learned before falls into place and you become (hopefully) a Realized being. But, one can study, study, and study, and never each Enlightenment. Why do you think that is?catmoon wrote:Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it.
isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.