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Ontological tension. - Dhamma Wheel

Ontological tension.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Reductor
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Ontological tension.

Postby Reductor » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:24 am


curiousgeorge
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby curiousgeorge » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:53 am

Well, you're description seems to change my interpretation of the quote... that taking someone's word for it in an insufficient substitute for direct experience. Of course, guidance can help us to shape our experience and to seek out experience that will drive us forward. I think this is still ultimately the answer to your question.


Regarding your explanation, there is the old Zen koan, "What is the sound of one hand clapping' - the answer being to slap the monk as hard as you can. I've always taken this to mean that you cannot take something out of context and hope to understand it. Thus the resultant, flawed understanding leads to flawed decision making, which results in flawed results. These results are unsatisfactory, and lead to negative feelings which drive violent action.

Thus, if someone takes only part of the Buddhas teachings separately, they are doing it wrong. Simple as that.

Secondly: You drew things out to a conclusion that is logical for you, but not the only conclusion possible. Modern scientific sorts to quite a bit of meditating, even with a reductionist view of the mind, because it works. People all over the world for all faiths have discovered the same thing, and do it for the same reason. For example, recently I talked to a famous musician who described the process he uses to resolve inner conflict to get ready to play as "a sort of meditation". Again, you cannot take one aspect away from a whole person and hope to make anything like accurate predictions of their behaviour.

Thirdly: To me, the reasons why the Buddha would include debate and controversy into his teachings seems self evident. These things serve to promote critical thinking skills, reduce faith based practice, and cause students to rely on experience for answers. Thus the teaching ultimately promotes the direct experience necessary for understanding.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:38 am

i have friends who absolutely believe in some implicate order to the universe that allows no room for randomness. so if say they dream about a green car and later that day they see a green car it must mean something, my answer is yeah, it means you saw a green car :toilet: the brain is, it seems, hardwired to make connections, even if there is no real connection there, this is why we are so prone to stereotyping, it helps saves energy we could be wasting by thinking :tongue: but seriously pattern recognition is a very helpful tool in evolution, but unfortunately for some people it goes too far. and when you go poking your head into books looking for something specific, even if its not meant to be there (or you're even aware you're looking for it), you'll probably find it. we must always be honest ,foremost, with our selves, and be mindful of the mind and its mental processes or else we can go making connections we shouldn't and basing our practice off of ideas that are off base and thus lead us off track to any real progress.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Shonin
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby Shonin » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:41 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:46 am

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Shonin
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby Shonin » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:37 am


PeterB
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:06 am

Or in Professor A.J. Ayers paraphrase.."There are more things in your philosophy than are dreamt of in heaven and earth "
:smile:

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:00 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

T3G
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby T3G » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:33 pm


5heaps
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby 5heaps » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:53 am

A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

Reductor
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby Reductor » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:39 am

Last edited by Reductor on Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeterB
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:41 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:11 am


5heaps
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby 5heaps » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am

A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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mikenz66
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:37 pm


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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby AdvaitaJ » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:05 am

Some of the issues raised have been of increasing interest in my practice lately. The analogy of the "100% positive eye witness" to a crime who is later proved to have been wrong comes to mind. The mind is powerful and I've often wondered if I'm training it to see what I've been instructed to expect. I've decided that, as in any good science experiment, repeatability is my best defense against self-delusory training.

With regards to the "tension" in the Buddha's teaching, there's certainly a vacuum there. I am of the opinion that part of the Buddha's realization is something he decided could not be communicated and must be experienced -- so he showed us the path and knew that when/if anyone got that far, they'd understand. Perhaps the Buddha, superb teacher that he was, simply could "not find the words". When reading other's description of advanced attainment (Sariputta, for example), I'm always checking to see if they offer a bit more description of the "fruit" than the Buddha did.

Regards: Jim
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:00 am

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

curiousgeorge
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby curiousgeorge » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:59 pm


curiousgeorge
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby curiousgeorge » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:20 pm

Lightning wit strikes again:


There is always ontological tension when something is misunderstood!

rowyourboat
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Re: Ontological tension.

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:26 pm

The Buddha taught people of different aptitudes/skills/faculties. Hence the teaching is sometimes different. Sometimes deeper. Hence the confusion, even though each level of description is correct, for us on the other side one side might seem more right than the other, depending on our tendencies (theorist, meditator, our view on ceasing to exist, not seeing total dukkha hence not seeing the total solution etc etc).

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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